mixing on 300L with elevator? frustrating

[STANG KILLA SS]

this was a HUGE problem with all the aerobatic planes on G2, and i just noticed the same problem on the 300L in G4. on high rates when you pull elevator to do a simple loop. there must be some kind of mixing that makes the plane also roll a little bit. making it impossible to do i simple loop, without it spiraling to the side.

in G2 it did it on high and low rates, and was ALOT of aleron (could have been rudder i guess) mixed in, made them all unflyable :rolleyes:

on the 300L on high rates in G4 i notice this again, not nearly as bad, but still there. what causes this? on low rates it seems to go away, but that could be just because theres so little throw, that you just cant see it.

whats the deal? how do i fix this. its really frustrating

[p.delorenzo]

Record your flight and posted it... I will tell you what you are doing wrong! :D

[r1derbike]

Heh-heh! Too much elevator! Don't pull so much elevator!

My real 3D RC planes exhibit this behavior because of radical 3D throws. All of them.

The increased control effectiveness of G4 may exacerbate this snap tendency.

The original G3 was very snapout happy. Too much so.

After flying the planes for a while, you get used to their quirks, and their "personality" is automatically accounted for with your flying.

Charles

[STANG KILLA SS]

ok glad im not the only one
just for giggles, can someone else try it?
get the 300L put it on high rates.
get nice and perfect level and just pull straight back. some times it takes 3 loops to be drastically noticeable. smoke helps to see it. its even doing it on the first loop. just not as noticable. it just wont keep flying in the same path. im flying with 0 wind

[p.delorenzo]

Just be aware of the following:
- what r1derbick said
- controller calibration
- because of right thrust and prop wash a plane can't stay on a perfect vertical plan, you need to correct this using rudder

But, in your case of roll, check your controller calibration, keep in mind what r1derbick said, and check your inputs while doing a loop. Don't just by using radio gadget but by firing up the software radio in "Settings" and simulating loop's control inputs to see what is going on.

Doing this I had been aware that, sometimes, while applying elevator my stick wasn't centered, applying a very very very few roll input... that's enough to ruin your maneuver... ;)

[STANG KILLA SS]

ok i recaliberated, still does it.
and i dont think im putting in any inputs as this is the only plane it happens on (that ive discovered so far)

[rccardude04]

If you're pulling full rudder, it's because you're practically stalling the airplane. Real r/c planes do that also.
-Eric

[flip3d]

The 300L as supplied on G4 has some pretty tame flight characteristics. What you have experienced is normal for this type of aircraft. What is NOT normal is to have that type of behavior coupled with SLUGGISH flight characteristics. I can only assume that the model was set up this way to get the novice pilot initiated as opposed to traumatized. The tip stalling is for the most part moderate but definitly there.

With all of the adjustments available these models can be edited to perform just about any way you like. The 300L will see HUGE benefits by increasing the"Wetted Scale Factor" to 150 or better on all axis with appropriate adjustments to CG, control throws, lift, moment factor, stall severity, etc. My personal edit has this parameter set at 200 with the CG centered on the wing root and elevator rotation at +50 and -45. SHARP AS A TACK!!! Is it easy to fly... NO. Can it perform... YES!

Bottom line: Get acquainted with the editing parameters and set up a balance that works for you. :)

[STANG KILLA SS]

"Wetted Scale Factor"

care to explain what this is? and how changing the number up and down affect the plane?

"lift, moment factor, stall severity"

these as well.....

[flip3d]

"Wetted Scale Factor"

care to explain what this is? and how changing the number up and down affect the plane?

"lift, moment factor, stall severity"

these as well.....
I would but I can't... at least from an engineering standpoint. Best thing to do would be to download a couple of edits from totally different ends of the spectrum. Don't know if they will download to G4 so you may have to use G3. First is the Groove edit by flip3d... this thing flys like it's attached to a rail. Second is the CAP580 edit by flip3d... flys as though it wants to go everywhere. Disect the edits to see what makes them what they are. That will give much more insight into the editing parameters than me trying to explain it here. Each model has a different goal but both are very flyable... the Groove more so than the CAP580 for obvious reasons. The "Wetted Scale Factor" is seldom altered just because on some models it's like opening a can of worms... model goes all wacko. That was not the case with the 300L.

[flip3d]

OK! Here goes kids! I'll take a stab at it.

In previous edits I noted that locating the CG way off zero (+ or - a substantial amount) generally resulted in flight performance losses as opposed to having the CG where you wanted it and the "y" figure (longitudinal axis) on or very near zero. Essentially it seems that by "forcing" the CG where it needs to be there is a divergence with the center of mass. It seems to me that the CG and the center of mass should coincide.

It would appear that the Wetted Scale Factor allows you to alter the center of mass to fall in line with the CG when set at zero (on the longitudinal axis). This seems to be the preffered situation when editing a model. By setting the longitudinal axis at "y=0" and then altering the Wetted Scale Factor on that axis in order to place the CG where you want it seems to produce far better results than just changing the "y" number.

What I am stating here is strictly based on observations. It does seem to work. I have the CAP580 balanced to where it will torque roll all day long like it has a gyro. This was largely possible by utilizing this method.

Any thoughts........

[opjose]

Heh-heh! Too much elevator! Don't pull so much elevator!

My real 3D RC planes exhibit this behavior because of radical 3D throws. All of them.

The increased control effectiveness of G4 may exacerbate this snap tendency.

The original G3 was very snapout happy. Too much so.

After flying the planes for a while, you get used to their quirks, and their "personality" is automatically accounted for with your flying.

Charles

Yup. if your plane loops out of round, simply don't pull so much or decrease the throws.

There were numerous threads on RCU of people complaining that their real planes must be "off" or defective.... because of exactly the same thing.

I typically dial up my low rates ( at full deflection ) until the plane begins to loop out of round, then back down until it stops.

I then set the high rates to go as high as possible.

Both eliminate the problem...

High rates cause the tail and wing to stall quickly and thereby evenly, causing a stall or stall loop.

Low rates then give me the tightest possible round loop.

[flip3d]

Could it be possible???
Maybe that's why there's that switch called High Rates - Low Rates. Could it be used for just that purpose? ;)

[jeffpn]

Sure it could. But I think alot of people also use low rates when taking off/landing, and high rates in between.

[0xdeadbeef]

Anyway, the main problem with G4 at the moment is the extreme increase of control surface effectiveness compared to G3, which is IMHO caused by a much too high prop wash. Most planes fly like they had a 200% (or more) prop wash factor.
From the experience with the original release of G3.5, there has to be a public uproar to get this fixed. Yet there are only some isolated remarks about it. I'm puzzled.

[flip3d]

Anyway, the main problem with G4 at the moment is the extreme increase of control surface effectiveness compared to G3, which is IMHO caused by a much too high prop wash. Most planes fly like they had a 200% (or more) prop wash factor.
From the experience with the original release of G3.5, there has to be a public uproar to get this fixed. Yet there are only some isolated remarks about it. I'm puzzled.
The DREAMING part:
That perspective thing comes into play again... the simulation takes on a reality of its own. I often times max the prop thrust for control purposes while reducing (or increasing) flight surface (control surface) parameters. If an effect seems exagerated on the sim it most certainly could be scaled back. I look at it as headroom or lattitude for adjustment.
The REALITY part:
In my case it's far too easy to sit on my duff and fly the computer... but I think the time spent will prove very usefull. Got a Sig Extra in a box... MUST ASSEMBLE AND FLY! (I keep telling myself that). Didn't realize how worn out my G3 controller was untill the G4 arrived... did a whole lot of sawing on them sticks!!!

[Law]

Anyway, the main problem with G4 at the moment is the extreme increase of control surface effectiveness compared to G3, which is IMHO caused by a much too high prop wash. Most planes fly like they had a 200% (or more) prop wash factor.
From the experience with the original release of G3.5, there has to be a public uproar to get this fixed. Yet there are only some isolated remarks about it. I'm puzzled.


Forgive me because I'm new here. But, isn't RealFlight handling all of the tech support issues. I would think that they would be the people seeing any sort of "public uproar" over any issues with G4.

As I understand it - I read a post on RCGroups - KnifeEdge is just the "vendor" who, I assume, sells the software to RealFlight (Great Planes - Hobbico). So, isn't RealFlight the responsible party?

[0xdeadbeef]

RealFlight is the name of the product, Great Planes is the publisher.
And yes, of course I sent a mail to the GP support a week ago or so. No reply though. Nada, zilch.

Now really: did you EVER get a competent reply from a support by email?
Phone support might be better, but for an international customer it's just too expensive.
Besides: if you had been around here at the G3.5 incident, you'd know that public uproar on the forum is more or less the only way to get a bug fixed.

This isn't much different with other programs or games. E.g. I reported a Crysis sound bug three times to the EA support. They wouldn't even really read my mails or reply in a sensible way. Instead I got the "this is an automatic reply, probably you are an idiot, don't bother us again" type of replies. Three times! Now I finished Crysis and gave up on bug reporting.

[opjose]

Anyway, the main problem with G4 at the moment is the extreme increase of control surface effectiveness compared to G3, which is IMHO caused by a much too high prop wash. Most planes fly like they had a 200% (or more) prop wash factor.
From the experience with the original release of G3.5, there has to be a public uproar to get this fixed. Yet there are only some isolated remarks about it. I'm puzzled.

If it were a "prop wash" issue, then the planes would respond differently when you kill the engine.

They don't.

The increased effectiveness scales up based upon control surface deflection.

One reason you are not seeing an uproar is that planes with lesser deflection don't exhibit this at all.

I took my WM Ultimate .40 variant from G3 and imported it to G4, and the plane flies EXACTLY the same way...

But my real plane and my G3/G4 variant only have about 20-24 degrees of surface deflection on ailerons and elevator.

Now my Ultimate 1.20 variant based upon my equivalent real plane, which has 35 degree deflection or more exhibits the "increased authority", particularly when in high rate mode.

The more throw available, the more pronounced the difference.

3D planes are most affected, one reaon hovering is SO much easier now...

Sheez the default extra is a BREEZE to hover... when I first fired up G4 I took it up and hovered it for 3 minutes just to check out G4...

It's too easy now.

[0xdeadbeef]

Hm ... I agree that the effectiveness is also too high if the engine is switched off.
Then again look how easy it is to steer any plane (even those without steering wheel) on the ground at slow speeds in G4. Can this really be caused by effectiveness alone?
Maybe it's a combination of both. In dunno. Anyway, something IS wrong.

I kinda disagree about the problem only being visible for high deflection. E.g. try to hover the Eclipse Bipe. Even the smallest deflection of the rudder causes extreme reactions. Again, this looks like a much increased prop wash. Maybe this is less visible on larger planes because of higher mass/inertia.