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abaser
12-17-2011, 12:19 AM
I decided to take a small break from the Electra and revisit my first failure, the Katana. Here's a few shots of the rough model. Ive still got to cut in the control surfaces, and touch up a few minor details, but shes almost ready for mapping :D

Boof69
12-17-2011, 12:21 AM
Hey there are no mulligans in modeling Andy. :D JK looks good!

Maj. Numbskully
12-17-2011, 12:23 AM
Not really a failure......just taking a little longer thats all ;)

abaser
12-17-2011, 12:28 AM
Im just over my poly goal of 4K right now, but Ive got some room to reduce them to where I want to be I think. :D

Maj. Numbskully
12-17-2011, 12:33 AM
Why is 4k your goal ?
I thought you could go much higher?

abaser
12-17-2011, 12:38 AM
Why is 4k your goal ?
I thought you could go much higher?
Ya you can, but Im trying to get myself into using as few polys as possible to make a nice looking plane. Just trying to make things simpler on me and RF.

Maj. Numbskully
12-17-2011, 12:39 AM
Gotcha

abaser
12-17-2011, 03:23 PM
I had a chance to do a little refining on this today and managed to drop several polys and get the control surfaces cut in.

Here's the CS Ill be going with.


http://www.krill-model.com/eu/en/index.php?id=designdetail&model=104&design=21

abaser
12-17-2011, 11:38 PM
One more time. Modeling is complete and the polys are staggeringly low for me. Now Im going to go for servos for less than the price of a collision mesh.

jeffpn
12-17-2011, 11:41 PM
Less than 4,000 now? No problem!!

abaser
12-17-2011, 11:47 PM
I don't know. The model I'm looking at has 8 visible servos and 10 rods. That'll add up fast.

jeffpn
12-17-2011, 11:48 PM
8 servos? Maybe not. My one and only servo I use is right around 600 polies.

abaser
12-17-2011, 11:51 PM
Yup. 3 per wing, and 1 for each elevator half. Then a pull pull for the rudder, but I'll only have rods there.

abaser
12-18-2011, 12:52 AM
8 servos, 10 rods, and 10 horns................still under 8K :D

jeffpn
12-18-2011, 08:29 AM
Nice!

abaser
12-19-2011, 12:52 AM
And we're off to Blender.

abaser
12-20-2011, 12:00 AM
Well, we made it to RF :D

td9cowboy
12-20-2011, 08:50 AM
How's it hover? That shot from the bottom points out what could be a problem with this design in 6 with the ailerons being so far outboard.

Maj. Numbskully
12-20-2011, 08:57 AM
:( I dont think modelers should have to alter the appearance away from how things look / are in the RW just for 6
I'd rather have the correct visual and fudge the invisible physics ........should not have to choose between both solutions in the first place...jmo

abaser
12-20-2011, 09:10 AM
How's it hover? That shot from the bottom points out what could be a problem with this design in 6 with the ailerons being so far outboard.
I'll let you know when I get it able to. It's like flying a brick at the moment :p

td9cowboy
12-20-2011, 09:11 AM
I agree Maj. If adjustments need to be made, always the wire frame. This design just cramps your style a little knowing what we know about the prop wash being so close to the fuse.

abaser
12-20-2011, 06:31 PM
Upon closer inspection, I've got a ton of rework to do. It seems the import to blender added several edges that were not originally there. Is this a problem in max a well? I exported from wings as a 3ds. It also brings the model in triangulated funny. Would an obj give better results?

jeffpn
12-20-2011, 06:34 PM
You may have an option for retriangulating polies checked (or not checked) somewhere. I have had some models that had funny issues when retriangulating solved them. I think faces with more than 4 adjacent vertices can mess with the model sometimes.

abaser
12-20-2011, 07:32 PM
As per Jeffs request, before and after repairs, the rudder cutout that came through fine, and last but not least, what happens when you fix the problem. Yup, I should've realized Id lose my mapping :eek: :o

Boof69
12-20-2011, 07:35 PM
It's probably yet another import settings. Look for entries referring to UVs. They can be excluded from imports.

abaser
12-20-2011, 07:40 PM
Losing my tga is due to how I had to fix them. In Blender, when you delete a vert or edge, you lose the face associated with it. You must manually create a new face, therefore the face is unmapped. Anyway, Im going to check my settings for 3ds export in wings, and also try an obj to see what happens.

jeffpn
12-20-2011, 07:43 PM
In Wings, the export options are available by clicking the square next to the Export file type, but I bet you knew that. I think there's more options on the .obj side. There's one that will create material naming havoc. You'll have to play with that setting. It's "One group per material." I forget if it needs to be on or off. You'll know, if you get it wrong.

abaser
12-20-2011, 07:49 PM
Funny you should mention that. I have a problem with that using a 3ds. When I did my pawnee, I believe I had 5 materials assigned on the fuselage. I got 5 different fuses on import. I have the same situation now. The material becomes part of the part name. Is that what you are talking about?

jeffpn
12-20-2011, 07:50 PM
I told you you'd know it when you saw it!! ;)

abaser
12-24-2011, 01:22 AM
At Flexible. How do these changes look?

Wing leading edge and rear stabs have edges added
Wheels are sized to your suggestions
Pipes are redone for cans
Fuse at rear stabs is rounded off, not flat.

flexible
12-24-2011, 01:55 PM
That all looks much better. The shade error on the wing tip might be a Gost vert. Selest the verts one at a time, then move them out of place. If you have a gost, you will see it.

jeffpn
12-24-2011, 02:05 PM
You can also rubberband select in vert mode. Wings will tell you how many verts are selected. Should be 1.

abaser
12-25-2011, 09:41 PM
Flex, I think I pretty much have your suggestions revised. Id just like to make sure its right though. Ive seen a couple different ways to set up the tail wheel, so Im not certain its where it needs to be.

All in all, Im pleased with the results. I managed to work in 10 servos, 12 pushrods, and 12 control horns at 8274 polys. So, looks like a coll mesh is going to be in order, but being the stubborn headed guy I am, Im still going to try to sneak one in just for laughs with no mesh :p

One thing that does have me puzzled is the canopy. It looks like there are two different materials on it, but I have checked many times and all faces are the same. Ive checked angles of the faces, checked for bad geometry, and have even holed the inside faces thinking it was the alpha on alpha problems Ive read about. No matter what angle you look from, you can see these different shadings. Any ideas that I haven't mentioned?

BTW, the wing tip problem was indeed ghost verts. Fixing it in wings would require remapping the wing and ailerons, BUT I figured out that the very same problem can be fixed in Blender by this nice feature called remove doubles with no other work necessary, including a remap :D

flexible
12-25-2011, 10:11 PM
I'm not sure what is going on with the canopy. Jeff wake up.
It looks to me as though you might need to do more work at the rudder hinge line.
I do not see air intakes or exits on the cowling. Remember three to one.
Also the center line of the wheel and the center line of the rudder hinge line must be the same.

abaser
12-25-2011, 10:19 PM
Oh ya, the cutouts. My plan at first was to just bump them in, but now that Ive broken the limit, I guess Ill cut em out. Thing is, when I do that, I guess Ill then have to add a motor, huh :p

As for the wheel, you are saying that the wheel center and the rudder hinge line need to line up vertically, and that I need to move things forward a bit, correct?

Boof69
12-25-2011, 10:41 PM
It's more like the SG and the rudder pivots should line up perfectly.
What have you named your canopy material? ~CANOPY right?

abaser
12-25-2011, 10:52 PM
Honestly, I think I have only used that naming on the Pawnee. All of my other models have had the window material named simply glass, with tinting and transparency added in the material editor. Ill change the name and see what happens.

Boof69
12-25-2011, 10:55 PM
If your baking the glass it won't matter. I honestly don't know what's causing that.

flexible
12-25-2011, 11:04 PM
I would suggest that you do a save selected of just the canopy, and post that file here so we can have a look see.

abaser
12-25-2011, 11:10 PM
Let me revise my canopy problem. I now see that it might very well be the transparency on transparency issue. Down on the fuselage, the problem goes away. However, when you look from one side, you see the light an dark areas, and when you go to the other side, the faces are just the opposite. My cursor is located on the faces exact opposite each other to show what I mean.

abaser
12-25-2011, 11:18 PM
Here ya go guys.

jeffpn
12-26-2011, 12:02 AM
I think you're always best to use the ~CANOPY material name for RF models, whether you bake the canopy or map it. That way you'll see the material when flying from the cockpit. That doesn't have anything to do with your issue, though.

This is what it looks like in my Wings. Maybe due to different lighting, it looks differently. I don't see your issue. Is it a problem in RF? I'm betting all you can do is to smooth the canopy, to add polies. I doubt it'd be worth it.

abaser
12-27-2011, 12:50 AM
Well, Ive been running this through my head for a day or two now, but Im going to go back to the Electra and get that one knocked out. I am about to take a major turn on this project and Id like to get my previous obligations done before I take the time to rework this bird. Just to give a couple of teaser shots and a little idea of what Im going to attempt, here's a little peek.

abaser
07-14-2012, 04:45 PM
With nothing going on today, I decided to start this build over for the last time. This will be the last go around for this model on my end.

With that being said, here's where Im at so far.

Poly count at 4010 with servos and linkages. There is lots of room for refining though.

As said in the above post, that's what Im going for.

abaser
07-15-2012, 10:25 PM
After a few tries, I finally got the fuse hollowed out and ready to start forming the inside details.

Madratter
07-15-2012, 10:37 PM
After a few tries, I finally got the fuse hollowed out and ready to start forming the inside details.

Back to wings! Full circle for you!

abaser
07-15-2012, 10:40 PM
Yup! My modeling time has become somewhat limited and wings is a comfort zone for me. I can get more done since I know what more tools do than I can in Max trying to figure out WHAT I need to look for.:p Im hoping (and also knowing at the same time) that I wont have the import/export problems I had with Blender.

Madratter
07-15-2012, 10:56 PM
At this point, 3ds max is my comfort zone. But hey, whatever gets the job done for you! If you like a tool, you may as well use it. Good models can and have been built in Wings, Blender, and 3ds max.

opjose
07-16-2012, 12:26 PM
After a few tries, I finally got the fuse hollowed out and ready to start forming the inside details.

Looking good.

What cowl design ( intake ) are you going for?

abaser
07-16-2012, 12:31 PM
I posted pics on the pervious page. One shows the bottom of the cowl with intake end exhaust openings. I believe it's also 3 pieces.

abaser
07-17-2012, 02:25 PM
OK Jeffery, What's going on here? I bridged across the top of the fuse to make the cross member. After forming it to the desired shape, I decided to hole the underside. Doing so causes these nice black areas to start popping up all over the place. Ever see this before?

First pic is before, second is after.

abaser
07-17-2012, 02:27 PM
Looking good.

What cowl design ( intake ) are you going for?

Here's the cowl head on.........if you can see it:p These are some TINY pics.

jeffpn
07-17-2012, 02:54 PM
You probably have invalid geometry. I can't really see well on my phone. Send me the file, and I'll look at it when I get home.

abaser
07-18-2012, 07:08 PM
A quick motor placement via Flex's Brison 6.4. All in all, 10,812 polys so far.



I really gotta work on my materials for better renders.:p

jeffpn
07-18-2012, 07:11 PM
I usually select all of the default materials, and assign a new material with less specular and gloss. Then I close without saving.

abaser
07-20-2012, 11:10 PM
Well, Its not much, but I got started on the pipes and the electronics tonight.

With motor, control rods, and servo horns, Im sitting just under 13k polys. The motor accounts for 6k of those.

Boof69
07-20-2012, 11:13 PM
The wires look nice. Looking good Andy.:)

abaser
07-20-2012, 11:16 PM
Thanks. There's going to be plenty more to go with them. Just wish there was a way to create them like using splines in max, but, that's another story.:p

In using this motor, a lot of details will get painted on instead of modeled I believe.

Boof69
07-20-2012, 11:18 PM
Have you seen if you can optimize the engine further from where it's at now?

abaser
07-20-2012, 11:23 PM
Ive looked at it, and there are a ton of polys to be gained I believe. Just haven't had the time to do it yet. It took two days to finally get the hard lines set up where I wanted. Time is just not on my side lately.

abaser
07-21-2012, 03:31 PM
A little more work on the exhaust supports.

abaser
07-22-2012, 10:30 AM
Motor optimization before and afters. First pic is at 5832 polys, and the second is at 5032. More can be had if necessary.

Boof69
07-22-2012, 10:34 AM
800 Poly aint nothing to sneeze at. Will the whole motor be visible?

abaser
07-22-2012, 10:44 AM
Only if the cowling breaks off. Im trying to decide if I want to do the two piece cowl or just one. If I do the two piece, I may leave the bottom half attached to the fuse so it wont come off, and therefore I can gain even more from the bottom of the motor.

I probably wont be using the mufflers on this one either, since Im running pipes to it. Ive got to find a shot of how they mount to the motor though.

abaser
07-22-2012, 09:59 PM
Is there a way to duplicate the highlighted area and slide it back? I seem to recall a way, but I can't figure it out. This is not a separate object, but can be.

jeffpn
07-22-2012, 10:13 PM
Extract|z. That will result in a seperate object. *

* No additional software required.

abaser
07-22-2012, 10:25 PM
Got it. Fuel tank and tray nearly complete.

abaser
07-22-2012, 11:17 PM
Anyone out there have a real world bird with tuned pipes willing to take some good shots of how they mount to the motor?

abaser
07-23-2012, 11:12 PM
Due to my net being out on my PC, this will have to do. I've added the pilot and pilot stand, so it's starting to look somewhat like this.

http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43110&d=1324961392

opjose
07-24-2012, 02:11 PM
Anyone out there have a real world bird with tuned pipes willing to take some good shots of how they mount to the motor?

Dunno if this helps:


As with glow tuned pipes, the header is connected to where the OEM muffler mounts.

The pipe is laid in place and a small silicon tube connects the two and absorbs vibration.

If there is a long run between the header and pipe, a metal exhaust pipe can be substituted...

http://www.hobbydream.com/images/201012/CR26TP.jpg

abaser
07-24-2012, 03:07 PM
Thanks. I'll take that into account.

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 05:18 PM
Andy's progress.

Fly_electric
07-26-2012, 06:18 PM
Excellent work!

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 06:40 PM
Thanks, but anyone could've posted those pics. I think Andy is the one you should be talking to!

jeffpn
07-28-2012, 10:44 PM
by
abaser

Maj. Numbskully
07-28-2012, 10:58 PM
....................:eek:
I'm speechless

abaser
07-29-2012, 09:50 AM
That's a good thing, right?:p

I promise, the shots look better before my phone butchers them.

Thanks for posting them Jeff.

Boof69
07-29-2012, 10:19 AM
When will you get the internet back?

abaser
07-29-2012, 10:27 AM
Who knows.

Boof69
07-29-2012, 10:44 AM
I think that the phone pics give the model a unique look. Its looking great.

abaser
07-29-2012, 10:53 AM
Thanks, but I'm ready to abort that method already.:p

Madratter
07-29-2012, 11:27 AM
I lost my internet Friday. Some guy with a cherry picker decided to run into the wires and take down about 300 feet worth before the wires caught him well enough to force him off the road.

I finally got it back Friday night. It is amazing how dependent on it we get. I missed an engagement because I only had the address in e-mail. Doh! :p

jeffpn
07-29-2012, 11:28 AM
I missed an engagement because I only had the address in e-mail. Doh! :pThree cheers for Outlook Express!!! Hip, hip, hooray!!! :D

abaser
07-29-2012, 11:41 AM
I lost my internet Friday. Some guy with a cherry picker decided to run into the wires and take down about 300 feet worth before the wires caught him well enough to force him off the road.

I finally got it back Friday night. It is amazing how dependent on it we get. I missed an engagement because I only had the address in e-mail. Doh! :p

I wish it were that simple.

Maj. Numbskully
07-29-2012, 04:03 PM
Ya thats a good thing
When I first saw the first 2 thumbs jeff posted for you I thought they were pictures of the real thing !
even after clicking on them it took a second or 4 to realize it was your model !

abaser
07-29-2012, 04:09 PM
When was your last eye exam?

It might be time for one. :p

Madratter
07-29-2012, 04:11 PM
Ya thats a good thing
When I first saw the first 2 thumbs jeff posted for you I thought they were pictures of the real thing !
even after clicking on them it took a second or 4 to realize it was your model !

All point sources are a 10!

I used to know some guys who rated girls by how close they could get before they could tell they were not a 10.

In all seriousness, the model is coming along great.

abaser
07-29-2012, 08:59 PM
Jeff, can you post that pic of the boxes in question?

I'm trying to get a definitive answer on what they are.

jeffpn
07-29-2012, 09:05 PM
Sure. Give me a few.

abaser
07-29-2012, 09:34 PM
Thanks Jeff. Not being a big bird guy, I'm not sure what these two boxes are. Dual receivers?

There are 14 servos on it.

abaser
07-29-2012, 11:25 PM
Modeling is almost complete. All that's left is a servo tray for the 3 rudder servos, fuel tubing from the tank, and a C mesh. Then the fun of making this beast begins.

jeffpn
07-30-2012, 09:08 PM
More progress pics

abaser
07-30-2012, 09:13 PM
Thanks again Jeff.

Modeling is practically done. Just a few more linkages, and a C mesh to go.

Poly count, a mere 16910.:D

Boof69
07-31-2012, 12:34 AM
It's really turning out nice Andy. Great details.

Madratter
07-31-2012, 07:34 AM
It's really turning out nice Andy. Great details.

Agreed. All those wires must have been a real pain.

abaser
07-31-2012, 07:48 AM
Honestly, not bad at all. I've got maybe an hour in doing them. Just a little rotate/extrude combo to get them semi in place then fine tuning on the placement. With the front set, I did one side and mirrored the other.

Oh yeah, the smaller ones are only 4 sided. 2 sides red,2 sides yellow.

Boof69
08-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Andy's CS progress pics....

abaser
08-04-2012, 06:07 PM
Thanks Scott.

The right side is nearly complete. I've been playing around with drop shadows on this one and think it adds to the CS in more ways than one. Anyway, the white stripe on the fuse will be redone, but you get the idea.

Boof69
08-05-2012, 08:05 PM
Posted for Andy.

abaser
08-05-2012, 08:09 PM
Thanks Scott. I was told by a reliable source that the larger box is a power box. However, I am still not sure what the smaller one is supposed to be. My guess is a receiver, but I'm looking for confirmation before going on in that area.

So, if anyone uses these, let me know.

Mikeymike21
08-05-2012, 10:09 PM
looks good

abaser
08-06-2012, 11:37 PM
Thanks Mikey.

Just an update, the CS is complete except for the pilot. Now for the _n and_s maps, then it's off to max for the good stuff.

abaser
08-06-2012, 11:58 PM
Jeff, I know you've told me before, but what's the secret to rendering normals and specs in wings?

Fly_electric
08-07-2012, 09:02 AM
Nice work Andy.

Thanks Jeff and Scott for helping him by posting the pix.

jeffpn
08-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Well you're welcome, FE.

Import the _n and _s files using Import picture under the File column. Then in the Material window, pick up the images one at a time, and drop them as Normal and Gloss on the material that has the main .tga assigned to it.

abaser
08-07-2012, 10:29 AM
Ahhh..........see, I was trying to make another .tga.:p

abaser
08-08-2012, 07:38 AM
I imported this into RF just to take a look at a few things, and discovered something odd. This model is a painted composite, so I'm making it shinier than normal to resemble a clear coat finish. In doing this,RF doesn't render it well at all. My first impression was it looked almost brown at spawn, and the wings looked like water colors that had gotten wet and run together. I then opened the editor, and it got stranger. When looking from one side, the white on the wings is very bright, yet the rest of the wrong is black. Look from the other side, and it's just the opposite, colors are bright, and white is black.

I'm not happy with this at all. Has anyone run into this before? I'll try to get pics uploaded sometime to explain better.

jeffpn
08-08-2012, 08:31 AM
What are your specular and glossines(?) settings of those materials in max?

abaser
08-08-2012, 08:35 AM
Default settings.

jeffpn
08-08-2012, 08:39 AM
I'm not sure what that means. I think they can be modified by the materials import when you import the .obj. I'm sure the Max expert will be able to help you. My forté is Wings.

Madratter
08-08-2012, 11:40 AM
I imported this into RF just to take a look at a few things, and discovered something odd. This model is a painted composite, so I'm making it shinier than normal to resemble a clear coat finish. In doing this,RF doesn't render it well at all. My first impression was it looked almost brown at spawn, and the wings looked like water colors that had gotten wet and run together. I then opened the editor, and it got stranger. When looking from one side, the white on the wings is very bright, yet the rest of the wrong is black. Look from the other side, and it's just the opposite, colors are bright, and white is black.

I'm not happy with this at all. Has anyone run into this before? I'll try to get pics uploaded sometime to explain better.

Andy, I'm unclear about what you are doing. Have you set the specularity with an _s map or do you have the glossiness setting for the material set high within 3ds max. Or are you mixing them in some way?

I will say that in general what specularity does is make a materials response to light sharper. Take for example a mirror which is very high specularity. Light bounces off it in just one direction (opposite to how it came in). So if you have very directional light, then you will end up with parts highly lit, and other parts very close to black. It sounds like that may be what is going on here.

(For the physics majors, I know the above is technically incorrect. For those who really care read Feynman on quantum electrodynamics).

abaser
08-08-2012, 12:05 PM
This is with adding the _s map. All material settings are default as I only imported to check just how glossy it was. I'll send you the pics shortly.

Madratter
08-08-2012, 12:22 PM
In 3ds max, you have to go through some gyrations to get the _s map to give you some nice glossiness/reflectivity. And a little goes a long long way. Boof gave me these instructions:

http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/showpost.php?p=230213&postcount=314

Note that you will need to turn down the refraction amount to something pretty low (below 20) to match the sort of affect you will get in RF6.

Boof69
08-08-2012, 01:09 PM
Andy it sounds like you may have inadvertently saved your normals map as the _s and it overwrote the other. Or maybe the other way around: the _s as the _n.

Boof69
08-08-2012, 01:11 PM
Sorry Andy I was out all morning. I just got back so here are andy's pics for this problem.

Boof69
08-08-2012, 01:13 PM
In 3ds max, you have to go through some gyrations to get the _s map to give you some nice glossiness/reflectivity. And a little goes a long long way. Boof gave me these instructions:

http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/showpost.php?p=230213&postcount=314

Note that you will need to turn down the refraction amount to something pretty low (below 20) to match the sort of affect you will get in RF6.

Those are instructions for renders and will not allow an export from max little alone work in RF.

Madratter
08-08-2012, 01:23 PM
Those are instructions for renders and will not allow an export from max little alone work in RF.

You are correct. Somehow, I got mixed up in terms of what Andy was saying although he was clear it was the editor in RF. My bad. :o

Boof69
08-08-2012, 01:24 PM
I know you knew that but I wanted to be clear for anyone that may be reading this in the future. No offence.:)

abaser
08-10-2012, 07:13 AM
Just for future references, I resolved the issue I was having with the _s map by adding an alpha layer to it. Things are now back on track. Now for the _n map, finish pivots, naming and linking.

Boof69
08-10-2012, 10:14 AM
Its good that you figured it out.

abaser
08-10-2012, 10:58 AM
Well, I never would have thought about it without your suggestion.

Boof69
08-10-2012, 12:41 PM
I didn't mean it that way.

abaser
08-11-2012, 11:02 PM
I'm in the process of setting pivots for control rods and servo horns. In testing the pivots, I've come across something that I can't figure out. On the wings, I have 3 rods and horns. I can select every horn and rotate all at once using the local setting, and things go as planned. However, if I select all of the rods, after the second is selected, the pivots move to the center of the rod. Doing them individually is fine, but what makes them different from the servo arms?

Boof69
08-11-2012, 11:22 PM
Try unparenting them first. It may make a difference.

abaser
08-11-2012, 11:27 PM
Nothing but the main components have been parented. I'm just now naming them in fact.

abaser
08-12-2012, 11:35 AM
With a fresh mind this morning, I opened max and saw the same results as last night. Once again,i started checking individual pivots and realized 2 of the rods had not been named yet. Since my rods are all duplicates of the original, they shared the same name with copy## at the end.

So, I named them correctly selected them all again, and things worked as planned. Not sure what naming had to do with it, but it worked all the same. :D

abaser
08-12-2012, 10:49 PM
Two questions. I'm trying to set up a moveable pod on my canopy so that it hinges in the rear, and the front opens. However, the physics is working just the opposite. It's pivoting from the front, and rotating down instead. Can that be fixed? If not, I'm not going to worry about it much as I feel it will only be used on the ground anyway, but thought I'd ask anyway.

Second, when I imported, I had a visible motor. Upon deleting all of the base wire frames, my motor no longer shows, and the prop is placed inside of the fuselage. I've never run into that before. It still shows as an option of a base component, but no visuals. Does being a modeled engine have something to do with this?

jeffpn
08-12-2012, 10:52 PM
There is an offset in the pivot in the RF editor. Try that.

Don't name your modeled engine ~CS_ENGINE. Name it anything else. In mine, I just combined the engine with the fuselage, since I wasn't wanting it to break off.

Boof69
08-12-2012, 10:54 PM
Put a negative sign in front of the rotational value for the canopy.

abaser
08-12-2012, 11:01 PM
The visual canopy rotates fine, just like I want it to. The wire frame however pivots from the front instead of the rear and goes down.

The engine is named ~CS_BRISON. I'll probably just combine it as Jeff suggests, but wondered why that would happen.

jeffpn
08-12-2012, 11:02 PM
Like I said...There is an offset in the pivot in the RF editor. Try that.

abaser
08-12-2012, 11:11 PM
Gotcha, found it, got it goin. Thanks.

abaser
08-12-2012, 11:58 PM
I stumbled across something I'm curious about. When setting up my elevators, I went to add a pod for the counter balance tips. In doing so, I mistakenly added symmetrical moveable pods to thew h stab. This created the perfect shape for the elevator. I deleted the control surfaces I added, and changed the fuselage drag to 100% and this gave them control. Is this the wrong way, or will it work correctly?

Boof69
08-13-2012, 06:35 AM
I usually add the symmetrical pod then position it on the hinge line then I add a symmetrical wing to the pod. This is in my opinion the correct way. A movable pod is calculated like a fuselage. With top and bottom airfoil too.

abaser
08-13-2012, 06:44 AM
My reason for asking is I usually see a separate tip pod on your setups. Doing this method created the actual shape of the elevator. No need for the tip pod, and one less thing for me to forget when changing throws.

Boof69
08-13-2012, 06:51 AM
Then you should use it. I was just saying that the aerodynamic calcs are technically in correct because of the top and bottom airfoil.

abaser
08-13-2012, 06:56 AM
That's what I wasn't sure of. Whether it was correct to do it that way or not. I haven't seen it used before, and got curious as to why.

Boof69
08-13-2012, 07:00 AM
You could add all your parts via movable pod or detachable pod and get the perfect shaped wireframe but aerodynamically the model would be considered a bunch of tubes bolted together.

abaser
08-13-2012, 07:05 AM
Gotcha. More questions to come I'm sure.:p

willsonman
08-13-2012, 10:15 AM
Yes and no. MOST of the time the top-bottom will only effect side-side aerodynamic calculations. The work around here could be done with COP modification to reproduce the overall effect. I have found that over all shape of a control surface is not nearly as important as area. If your area is roughly what it needs to be you are on the right track. It really is next to impossible in the sim to reproduce say, for example, the elevators of my FFVS J-22. The tail has curved trailing edges. Never gonna happen unless pods are used. Well... not true. To avoid a complicated setup I reproduced an equivalent setup using approximate area as I mentioned. Sim flew just like my scratch built model.

I have to say that most folks need to keep in mind how forgiving our models can be aerodynamically because air does not scale.

Now, you COULD use a hybrid effect here. only the tips of the elevators need the MPs so do that. Make a wing out to the end of the H-stab. Add an extension to get the TE of the elevator tip and add a MP to get the LE of the elevator tip. Not sure its worth the effort but it may. The fun part is trying and seeing how it pans out. Find a few videos of a similar plane flying and try to reproduce the same move and see how the plane reacts. That is how you tell how effective it may or may not be.

Boof69
08-13-2012, 11:40 AM
I have found the most predictable results come from adding a wing to reproduce a counterbalanced tip. I completely agree that just an approximate shape is necessary. Experimentation can be fun too I guess.

abaser
08-13-2012, 12:07 PM
Is there something I've missed that explains this type of issue anywhere? You guys seem to know specific info about things that I haven't found yet.

Boof69
08-13-2012, 12:47 PM
No nothing I've read just noticing differences in the different component types. A wing allows for an airfoil at the root and tip. A fuselage detachable or movable components do not. Furthermore the fuselage detachable and movable components have an airfoil for the sides and an airfoil for the top and bottom. So airflow will be calculated for lift and drag on the sides and the top and bottom. A wing does not. The fuse when turned on its side in knife edge supplies some of the collective lift. I try to supply the fuse with an appropriate airfoil for the give shape. For instance the Ryan has a tall side profile relative to the skinny top profile. This means the fuse provides less lift in knife edge flight then when the fuse is upright. Using that information is how I advised you in my first post on this subject.

abaser
08-15-2012, 12:02 AM
Quick question. In trying to find out some weight info on this model, the web site is in metric units I guess. I've tried to find a conversion chart, but I can't figure out the wing loading. The site shows a WL of 93,35g/dm2. I'm no math whiz, so any help is appreciated.

jeffpn
08-15-2012, 07:48 AM
Just switch RF to metric and go! ;)

abaser
08-15-2012, 07:53 AM
You can do that?!?!:p

willsonman
08-15-2012, 09:08 AM
Uhm... google will convert that. Copy and paste this into your google search engine.
93.35 g/dm^2 to oz/ft^2

opjose
08-15-2012, 01:14 PM
Yes and no. MOST of the time the top-bottom will only effect side-side aerodynamic calculations. The work around here could be done with COP modification to reproduce the overall effect.

BTW: Top Bottom and Fuse side calculations do seem to factor into what the editor reports for wing loading.

If a real RC plane reports 10oz/ft^2 wing loading and you have your simulated plane reporting the same, then it is likely that the loading is TOO high.

Usually the effects of the fuselage are not taken into effect with real world wing loading calculations but the sim does otherwise.

You can test this by modeling just a pair of wings w/o a fuse, check the wing loading in the editor, then add the fuselage. After doing so loading values will DROP.

willsonman
08-15-2012, 02:32 PM
This is soooo true. Never understood why KE does this but it is there. Pods will increase the area and throw off your loading as well.

abaser
08-19-2012, 12:32 PM
Just to let you guys know, the idea of open c meshes doesn't work. When I first reported it did, I didn't notice my tail wheel sinking in the ground. After seeing that, I closed it up and it's back on top of the surface. Can't explain why the main wheels didn't sink, but the tail does.

Madratter
08-19-2012, 01:54 PM
Just to let you guys know, the idea of open c meshes doesn't work. When I first reported it did, I didn't notice my tail wheel sinking in the ground. After seeing that, I closed it up and it's back on top of the surface. Can't explain why the main wheels didn't sink, but the tail does.

Good to know. Thanks!

Fly_electric
08-19-2012, 06:12 PM
OK, off topic, but the "sinking" comment brings two questions to mind:

Are there models in the swaps with skis?
Are there APs with flyable snow areas?

abaser
11-23-2012, 10:34 PM
Moving discussion of this model back to its original thread. I finally got her into RF after several hours of time consuming overlooks, tga rework, max file cleaning, and a few other things. All in all, I think she's going to live to see the swaps. I did lose the _s.tga, so that will have to be completely redone, and Ive got a mapping issue on the canopy. the model does look a little rougher in areas than I recall, or my eye for such things has gotten stronger, but I think Im going to leave it be in fear of doing more damage than good.

I gotta say, I love how the spinner came out.........on the first try.:p

You can also get some very interesting shots at a photo field when you unlock the camera.:D

abaser
11-24-2012, 01:24 AM
Ok, Im no expert, but this doesn't seem right (other than I forgot to add the ~CANOPY material to the canopy).

Puzom
11-24-2012, 10:13 AM
Well looks better than those teal CS............;)

And as a RF beginner, how do you unlock the photofield camera?

jeffpn
11-24-2012, 10:36 AM
Well looks better than those teal CS............;)

And as a RF beginner, how do you unlock the photofield camera?You can edit the airport to do that, but it's ill-advised. You won't like the effect when you're flying around. It's only good for doing screenshots.

Puzom
11-24-2012, 10:45 AM
OK will check, thanks.

abaser
11-25-2012, 01:17 PM
Courtesy of Boof69.

abaser
11-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Getting started on the _s.tga. This model is a painted model, so let the clear coat shine.:D

Cap232
11-26-2012, 09:33 PM
Awesome can't wait to fly this plane

abaser
11-27-2012, 12:03 AM
All that's left is physics:D Probably the easiest CS Ive done in a while.

abaser
11-27-2012, 12:04 AM
Awesome can't wait to fly this plane

Thanks.

Wingman57
11-27-2012, 12:37 AM
Man that's got some shine to it haha, looks great:)

abaser
01-31-2013, 07:36 PM
Please send it to me if you get a chance.

I've been tweaking your CMP 3D EP plane too.
Check you email.

abaser
03-19-2013, 05:16 PM
Any word on this one from physics land?

opjose
03-19-2013, 05:53 PM
Sorry... been swamped of late...

Thanks for the bump... I'll get back to it ASAP.

abaser
03-19-2013, 05:54 PM
No problem. Just curious.:)

abaser
07-30-2013, 12:43 PM
Sorry... been swamped of late...

Thanks for the bump... I'll get back to it ASAP.

Any word on this?

brields
07-30-2013, 05:56 PM
I was wondering if this plane ever got done. If so, did it get posted?

Maj. Numbskully
07-30-2013, 07:46 PM
I was wondering ...?
I to am looking forward to this one.................nice CS as well andy

abaser
07-30-2013, 08:33 PM
Thanks Maj..

No brields, it's not finished. Thus my inquiry about physics.