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Jed_Sanders
03-05-2012, 11:30 AM
Hi all.

After upgrading to RF6 I wanted to have a go at making a model.
I decided to built a Spitfire

I have read various tutorials, after my first attempt ended in an extruded mess, and have the rough model 'built' but I would appreciate an experienced modeller to see if they can spot any flaws or potential issues. I used wings 3D.

This is the rough model without control surfaces:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4291/spitfire1.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3823/spitfire2.jpg

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/111/spitfire3.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6682/spitfire4c.jpg

I'm happy enough that it looks like a Spitfire but I know its a long way off a RF model.
Wings tells me it has 307 Polygons, 641 edges and 366 vertices.

Any help would be appreciated.

jeffpn
03-05-2012, 11:33 AM
Looks good so far.

RF polies are 3-sided. The limit is 20,000 polies (triangles). For an accurate poly count, in Face mode Tessalate|Triangulate all of your faces. In object mode, Combine everything. That will be a closer poly count, about double what you have stated.

Jed_Sanders
03-05-2012, 11:49 AM
jeffpn,

Thanks for the info, I now have this:

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5825/spitfire5.jpg

weighing in at 620 plys, 954 edges and 336 vertices

I shall move onto the control surfaces and the canopy now, I'll also have to read up on opening up the rads and intake as well as hollowing out the cockpit.

I should have started with a foamy!

jeffpn
03-05-2012, 11:51 AM
Google "Wings Junkers". There's a great method for doing a cabin there. I've used it several times.

Jed_Sanders
03-05-2012, 12:12 PM
Thanks for that.

I'll repost once I've made more progress. I'm glad I am on the right track.

jeffpn
03-05-2012, 12:16 PM
Practice it on a mock up before you do it for real. It is tricky.

flexible
03-05-2012, 01:40 PM
You will have set backs along the way. Before that happens, start saveing you're work in several places, makeing the primary place the last place to save each time you save, as Wings does an auto save every 10 mins to the last place you have saved.

jeffpn
03-05-2012, 01:45 PM
I find that autosave irritating when I'm cranking along, and then I have to stop for a few seconds, long enough for it to finish the save. Sometimes I've lost my momentum. I turned off autosave. I do incremental saves whenever I make a big change to the file. knock on wood, I haven't been burned yet!

flexible
03-05-2012, 01:53 PM
Experienced modelers can have many tricks up there sleeve. My suggestion was design to to save his bacon when doing something new, where he makes a bad mistake along the way that can not be undone because he has made to many moves. In this instance, you just kick the bad one to the curb, and pick up the known good file.

Madratter
03-05-2012, 01:58 PM
What I do is when I have hit a major progress point (say adding side force generators, getting 45 degree angles cut for the control surfaces, or just finishing for the night), I create a new sub folder under the directory where I normally save. I then label with the date and sometimes an indication of where I am. For example, I might have "CY 20120304 (side force)" after I finished making side force generators for the Crack Yak. Then I copy the working files from the main directory into the sub-folder. This way, if I mess up, I can get back to something that is reasonable.

jeffpn
03-05-2012, 02:00 PM
In this instance, you just kick the bad one to the curb, and pick up the known good file.
Yup. My instance too. I sometimes save my progress when I know I'm going to try something that may not work. That way I know exactly how far back I'll have to go to start over. That prevents an autosave from saving something you'd rather it didn't.

There you have it: two ways to skin a cat.

flexible
03-05-2012, 03:25 PM
A third way to skin thev same cat. If I am doing something riskey, I will make duplicate of the part I am fixing to try something on, leaving it bin the same file, then do a save as before I get out on the then ice.

jeffpn
03-05-2012, 03:30 PM
Yup. Want a fourth way that works in some situations? If I screw up only a part of an object, I'll delete those faces and save. I'll go back to a prior file and extract|0 those faces which aren't messed up, merge them into my current file, and weld them in. Obviously that won't always be there to save you, but it has saved me on limited occasions.

flexible
03-05-2012, 04:41 PM
That would not help me, as I do not know how to WELD in Wings, I do however know how to arch weld, is it the same thing, only in Virtual?

willsonman
03-05-2012, 05:04 PM
Looking good. I remember awhile ago doing this one but lost the progress on it due to a corrupted wings file. Save save save. I'd love to see a new Spit of this make on the swaps. It is very much needed. Many of the old add-on planes need some serious help to make use of the newer capabilities for RF. With this subject I am sure you will get plenty of help to make it spectacular. I am happy to chip in with whatever.

Boof69
03-05-2012, 10:34 PM
As for the subject of saving I normally only hit ctrl+s for an instant save to the current directory. I sometimes will ping pong saves between 2 separate files e.g. current project.max and current project_alt.max. This method has never failed me yet and as a matter of fact it has saved my butt a few times.

Jed_Sanders
03-05-2012, 10:35 PM
I put a few more hours into the spitfire tonight.

The intake is in place and the radiators just needs to be reduced in size.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9228/spitfire6.jpg

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5684/spitfire7.jpg

Lots more to learn!

jeffpn
03-05-2012, 10:38 PM
Just an FYI. You don't need to upload images to an alternate site. Just attach your images to your post. Look for the Manage Attachments button below the Submit reply button.

brields
03-05-2012, 11:35 PM
Looking good.

Jed_Sanders
03-06-2012, 07:37 PM
A few more hours.
Yes these minor changes take me hours!

willsonman
03-06-2012, 08:59 PM
Really shaping up nicely though!

Jed_Sanders
03-06-2012, 09:36 PM
Thanks all.

I'm now at the stage of trying to create an interior cockpit space and trying to create a canopy that could split and slide back. (not that I have any idea how that could work, yet)

I think I've just figured out my issue when trying to create the interior (wings junkers, method as suggested), I hadn't frozen the mirror. I can now see its one whole object after the freeze.

Jed_Sanders
03-06-2012, 10:56 PM
This is addictive!

Just the control surfaces left to cut out.
Then that's as far as I have learnt.

What's next?

jeffpn
03-06-2012, 11:00 PM
Mapping!!

willsonman
03-06-2012, 11:28 PM
Nope!!!! Landing GEAR!!!!! Those wheels will eat LOTS of polys. I would od them first before you get too carried away with cockpit details.

Jed_Sanders
03-08-2012, 11:47 AM
In my limited knowledge, im happy with model (my first attempt) and it all looks smooth-ish. I've cut out all the control surfaces, apart from trims, and the only thing I can see that's needed is the exhaust bulge and stacks.

I just need to work out how to hinge things together, like control surfaces, landing gear and wheels. Is this all done in wings?

Here's a screen grab from today's efforts.
Thanks to Boof for the seat! I've also seen a nice tail wheel in the parts bin.

Any constructive criticism is more than welcome.

jeffpn
03-08-2012, 11:55 AM
Wings can not assign pivots or hierarchy. Both are required for a RF model. Blender is a free program that can do that. 3DS Max does all that, too.

Jed_Sanders
03-08-2012, 12:00 PM
Thanks Jeffpn, off to download and learn blender!

willsonman
03-08-2012, 12:11 PM
Well, to be nitpicky.... your flaps should be split flaps. All MKs of spittys did not have full flaps.

abaser
03-08-2012, 12:16 PM
You will need this. First post has a setup tut that MUST be followed.

http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28009

Madratter
03-08-2012, 01:35 PM
You will need this. First post has a setup tut that MUST be followed.

http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28009

Also, make sure you get the correct version of Python. It must match exactly the version of Blender you are using. For Blender 2.49b that is Python 2.6.2.

Jed_Sanders
03-08-2012, 01:55 PM
Well, to be nitpicky.... your flaps should be split flaps. All MKs of spittys did not have full flaps.

Thanks for that, I can split the flaps, but I'm still trying to figure out how all the hinges and connections work.

Looking through the parts bin, I can see both tail gear and main gear wheels and struts, so I think I have all parts needed, just not the knowledge how to put it all together.

I've never done any 3D modelling at all, so the guides can be a bit daunting, however I shall persist.

I was stuck trying to get the spitfire from wings to blender, but i've just seen that I missed a step (thanks abaser for the link) so will need to restart the blender install process.

Thanks again to all for your help, maybe one day I can fly my wonky spitfire in G6! :D

Madratter
03-08-2012, 02:38 PM
I was stuck trying to get the spitfire from wings to blender, but i've just seen that I missed a step (thanks abaser for the link) so will need to restart the blender install process.


In wings, export what you have. I use .3ds but .obj might actually be better. Then import that into blender. You will find that the parts have been renamed, etc. It is quite a pain in the neck. (Part of why Abaser and I are using Blender for all our modeling, even though it is somewhat more complicated to learn than Wings).

abaser
03-08-2012, 02:52 PM
In wings, export what you have. I use .3ds but .obj might actually be better. Then import that into blender. You will find that the parts have been renamed, etc. It is quite a pain in the neck. (Part of why Abaser and I are using Blender for all our modeling, even though it is somewhat more complicated to learn than Wings).

Each type has its drawbacks. For me, it was the 3ds files lost naming and were triangulated wierd. Obj files came through better, but the materials didn't seem to transfer over. If a part was baked (colored but not mapped) it would only show as white in blender. There was no editing the materials either. That was the big problem for me in the transfer. I would spend more time trying to fix issues from the switch than I would spend doing pivots and linking.

abaser
03-08-2012, 03:00 PM
Just so you know, you can model in any version of Blender you like EXCEPT those that support bmesh (that you must activate right now).The current version is 2.62 I believe, but do not activate the b mesh, it will eat you faces when you go back to 2.49b. Ask me how I know:p. However, currently you can only export the .kex file out of 2.49b. Im currently trying my best to get that changed, but we will have to wait and see on that.

willsonman
03-08-2012, 06:14 PM
so I think I have all parts needed, just not the knowledge how to put it all together.

I've never done any 3D modelling at all, so the guides can be a bit daunting, however I shall persist.

This is how I got into it. Persist because you love it. I had zero background in this stuff and now I am making cad drawings for airplanes I intend to build. I'm certainly not the best here but I do have some strong points. It took me several models to learn how to make proper scale gear. It is an art.

You are doing just fine.

Jed_Sanders
03-08-2012, 07:31 PM
I'm stuck!

Abaser; I'm stuck on the first step of your guide.
Basically I cant work out the script side. I can't download the blender version on your tutorial, only 262. Then I cant find the 'scripts config editor'.

Also in the 'import' from blender wont recognise .obj files and the .wings that I changed to .3ds loads a big list of errors in blenders console. :confused:

I've added a screen of the blender programme, if its helpful and a pic of the spitfire ready for connections:

Madratter
03-08-2012, 07:38 PM
I'm stuck!

Abaser; I'm stuck on the first step of your guide.
Basically I cant work out the script side. I can't download the blender version on your tutorial, only 262. Then I cant find the 'scripts config editor'.

Also in the 'import' from blender wont recognise .obj files and the .wings that I changed to .3ds loads a big list of errors in blenders console. :confused:

I've added a screen of the blender programme, if its helpful and a pic of the spitfire ready for connections:

You absolutely must use blender 2.49b. Blender 2.62 will not work.

http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-249/

Also, you don't just rename .wings to .3ds. You have to export it from wings as .3ds

abaser
03-08-2012, 07:46 PM
You absolutely must use blender 2.49b. Blender 2.62 will not work.

http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-249/

Funny......I was just getting that link:p

Yes, you must have 2.49b. Madratters link will take you where you need to be. AFTER you get that going, the tut should take you to where you need to be as the interface is different. If you still get stuck, let me know here or by PM. But trying to get 2.6 to export is a waste of time at the moment.

As for the errors you are getting trying to import to Blender, I really don't know whet that could be. You could post the wings file here and Ill take a look at it and see if I get the same thing. Just add a .rfx to the end of the file name before uploading.

Jed_Sanders
03-08-2012, 09:58 PM
After sorting the export part out, I think, I still cant import the .obj file.
I have exported it from wings as .obj and when I find the file, in blender-import, it gives me the pictured options. After 'import' i get a blank screen.
I have also added the .wings.rfx, if anyone can take a quick look to see if they can get my wonky spitfire in blender, i would be most grateful.

abaser
03-08-2012, 10:17 PM
First off, your model is rotated incorrectly in wings. The fuselage must run along the z axis (Hope Im not backwards here). press "X". You should have the fuselage running side to side, with the tail to the left. If you point the nose of the plane to the bottom left corner of the screen, the little blue axis marker in that corner should point to the nose of the plane.

The .obj is there. It's just SO tiny, you have to really scroll in to see it. I suggest import the obj, place the cursor near the center of the screen, hit "S" to scale, and drag the cursor towards the edge of the screen. see if you get the same result. Ill check into the 3ds errors shortly.

The first pic is the default view.

Jed_Sanders
03-08-2012, 10:29 PM
Thanks Abaser, your a star.

Didn't I mention that I was making a micro spitfire:D
I wondered why when I imported mr boofs seat and tail wheel, they were so big compared!
I realised the model was built along the wrong axis over half way through, but when I tried to rotate it, all the added parts rotated in a different manner.

Well if nothing else, I hope my wonky micro spitfire gave you a giggle rather than trying your patience :D

abaser
03-08-2012, 10:39 PM
Do you know how to set the wingspan? you are at 11.2 in. right now. In vertex mode, select the outermost 2 verts, 1 on each wing, and wings will give you the distance between them.;)

Also, I had no problems with the .3ds either.

jeffpn
03-08-2012, 10:43 PM
When rotating multiple parts at the same time, do it in vertex mode. They'll rotate together. Wings tip: hold the shift key when you rotate.

abaser
03-08-2012, 10:51 PM
I just saw something that I forgot to tell you. In the pic you posted showing the .obj import, look towards the bottom left. you will see clamp scale. Slide that to 0 for proper sizing. (BTW......I think I forgot to do that when I imported as well. Thats one reason you can't see it in the default screen. Sorry:o)

willsonman
03-08-2012, 10:53 PM
Or hit tab and you can specify what degree of rotation you need.

Jed_Sanders
03-08-2012, 10:56 PM
Abaser, the real wingspan is 11.2m and I used that as my guide, it must of ended up as microns though.

Thanks for the tip jeffpn!

Still a LONG way to go, and each time I look at it I can see more nasty edges, imperfections and errors.

If your looking for a RF6 Spitfire, please don't hold out for this one. :D

jeffpn
03-08-2012, 11:11 PM
David wasn't Michelangelo's first work!! Relax and have fun with it. There's more to learn than one model can teach you.

a4magic
03-08-2012, 11:15 PM
I do have to say, it is an extremely clean looking model!

abaser
03-08-2012, 11:17 PM
Exactly. My first never saw the swaps either. In fact, Ive done it again, and it still isnt there:p Consider this a learning experience. go through the steps to get it in RF, and save it to look back on in a few months so you can look back and say, "Wow! And I thought that looked good?". Believe me, after you get a couple under your belt, you'll look back and laugh. Been there, done that.

All in all, it looks good for a first model. There's stuff most wouldn't try on a first build.

Jed_Sanders
07-13-2012, 10:47 AM
I've recently been playing in wings 3d again, but as I need to learn the next basics steps, I've grabbed 3DS Max.
wow, my brain hurt in wings, now I have all sorts of buttons to press!

This version was rebuilt twice in wings, since the last post, as I didn't like some of the glaring errors in model detail, not that this should be viewed as perfect copy of a Mk22.

Now in max I'm exploring smoothing groups and pivots, thanks for your help MR.

Here's a couple of pics:

Madratter
07-13-2012, 11:03 AM
The problems you have going on their can be cured by the most part by welding together duplicate vertices and by using smoothing groups.

You will want to cut some of the parts like the wings from the fuselage before you you start doing the smoothing groups. (There is no harm doing it first, but you will need to redo it after you separate the parts).

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 08:57 AM
I've re-modelled some parts in wings and also cut the wings and h-stab out.

When I import to max, I'm now receiving some errors that I didn't receive previously.
I've added some images of the import options, import errors (when imported with selected options), and a render of the cleaner Spitfire.

Also a quick question, will smoothing groups cure the shading issue around the freshly cut H-Stab (Horizontal line from base of rudder,fwd to fuse top)?

jeffpn
07-16-2012, 09:07 AM
Did you move your .obj file from where Wings (or whatever software you used to model) put it? Your problem may be more simply solved by defining your Materials in Max, rather than messing with the import process. Max and Wings use reverse sliders for specular and gloss, too. At least I have to adjust them in Max for each material.

I also smooth the entire model once in Max. Autosmooth works well for most of the model. I manually smooth every face (in groups) for the rest. You'll find using the .obj import will make the model look better in Max than it will in RF, which of course is your ultimate goal. I found that out a long time ago. I still prefer using .obj over .3ds. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Madratter
07-16-2012, 09:24 AM
I've re-modelled some parts in wings and also cut the wings and h-stab out.

When I import to max, I'm now receiving some errors that I didn't receive previously.
I've added some images of the import options, import errors (when imported with selected options), and a render of the cleaner Spitfire.

Also a quick question, will smoothing groups cure the shading issue around the freshly cut H-Stab (Horizontal line from base of rudder,fwd to fuse top)?

First, I agree with Jeff that I would not worry about the materials. I would just define new ones in 3ds max. I also agree with him as to what probably caused it.

Second, I assume you mean the problem with the vertical stab, not the horizontal stab. To me, that looks like the geometry is not matching up exactly and smoothing groups probably will not solve that problem. The shot you have is a little too low res to really tell exactly what is going on there. If you have a higher res shot with edges showing, then we could probably tell more about what is going on with the geometry.

You can change the res of renders in 3ds max. Just set it to something considerably higher (I use 1680x1050 but just something that isn't the default (if I recall that is 640x480).

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 09:26 AM
I used wings to get this far, the .obj file was saved by wings into the file I have always used, the location hasn't been moved.
The last time I imported into Max the import showed no errors and the glass/materials were there. I thought some of the options in the import screen looked different but I didn't select or remove any.
The only difference between the two imports was some cleaning and cutting of the wings and h-stab in wings3d.

But if your saying it would be more viable to create/edit the materials in Max, then I shall learn the process in max. I need to get acquainted with the programme anyway.

I shall certainly have a look at that auto smoothing. Anything with 'auto' in sounds good at the moment.

Thanks for the info.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 09:32 AM
Thanks MR, V-Stabiliser.

Just by looking at the frame in max, I think I can see the issue. But here's a better shot.

Madratter
07-16-2012, 09:57 AM
Thanks MR, V-Stabiliser.

Just by looking at the frame in max, I think I can see the issue. But here's a better shot.

Yup. The shading here is just following the geometry and is correct. Shading groups would not help this problem. The geometry is tucking in at the line between the two. Those vertices both on the fuselage and the vertical stabilizer need to be moved out so that it does not tuck in.

You could do that a couple of different ways. The two that come to mind are:

1) Rejoin the two parts in 3ds max. Then weld those vertices. Then move them to where they need to be and separate the parts again. You can separate them along that line.

2) Move the vertices on the one part where they need to be. Then vertex by vertex, not the coordinates, and make the matching vertex on the other side match using the coordinates you can see at the bottom of 3ds max if you have the move widget on.

Personally, I would do it method #1. But either method will work. There may be other ways that are even easier.

Madratter
07-16-2012, 10:00 AM
Looking further, I'm not positive it is tucking in. This may be a smoothing group problem. If tucking in, see above, if not smoothing groups will do the trick. It looks like maybe one smoothing group is being used for the entire vertical stab.

jeffpn
07-16-2012, 10:15 AM
Yeah, I would say that the top face of the vstab(under the rudder) is in the same smoothing group as the sides. It should be different.

As far as materials go, mine have always imported via .obj to Max with no issues except those previously mentioned.

Welding verts is really not necessary with the .obj file type. .3ds breaks up objects according to mapped edges, but that doesn't happen with .obj.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 10:50 AM
Thanks guys for the hints.

I will just import the .obj file and sort the materials later.
The line shown (shading error) is based along a loop cut, so none of the verts should overhang.
When I import from wings, will smoothing groups be allocated/used? I have not used them in wings, the model was built by just moving verts in X,Y,Z loop cutting and adding a few hard edges.

If some sort of Smoothing has been added to the model then that will be it I expect, as I've still not used them. I'll post a pic up once I've gone through some smoothing.

jeffpn
07-16-2012, 10:53 AM
The only reason I smooth in Wings (it's called hard edges there) is so it looks good in Wings while I'm working on it, and for rendering. I don't think smoothing in Wings transfers to Max well at all. Many times in Wings, I'll AutoSmooth, too.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 10:56 AM
Ahh OK hard edges is smoothing.
Well would it be a better idea to add hard edges, to the loop cut for V-stab and fuse, in wings and re-import?

Madratter
07-16-2012, 11:04 AM
Ahh OK hard edges is smoothing.
Well would it be a better idea to add hard edges, to the loop cut for V-stab and fuse, in wings and re-import?

No. Just do the smoothing groups in 3ds max. Basically, select the vertical stab, go to modify and you should probably have an edit poly modifier. Go into that and go to polygons. Under there you will find smoothing groups. Clear them for the vertical stab. Then select the faces you want in a smoothing group and click one of the #s to assign them to that smoothing group. You can try auto but it probably won't do what you want.

For example, each side of the vertical stab would be its own smoothing group. The top is probably another one, etc.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 11:09 AM
Smoothing it is!

Its looking much better now just hard edged the offending lines in wings (I was faster than your post MR), imported again and much better. I'll post a pic later up of some smoothing groups.
This import even took the materials:confused:

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 11:15 AM
One more question before I start all my smoothing, what do I label the canopy sections?
In wings the front of the canopy is part of the fuse, and the aft sliding portion is its own object. However in Max the front part appears as a different object. Which is ~canopy and what is the other object labelled as? I have all the other ~CS_***** names.

Boof69
07-16-2012, 11:18 AM
Here is a tip that you may be interested in MR and it looks like it will help Jed too.
If you have two objects that are touching and verts on the border need to be adjusted for both don't rejoin them or attach them together. Select both objects then apply an editable poly modifier. Now you can edit both objects at the same time. This is how most of the modifiers work especially the unwrap UVW modifier.
Jed, do you mean for the rudder to be in 2 pieces? I could be wrong but that's what it looks like in your pics. The leading edge of the vertical where it meets the fuse dents in. The method I described above will help you fix that. Everything else looks to be smoothing groups to me. If you aren't familiar with smoothing groups check out the modelers tip of the day thread. I have a tutorial on the subject.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 11:25 AM
Hi Boof, I thought I had to cut the V-stab out to create the ~CS_MMVS object, if this is what you mean. So I cut it out of the fuse, along the top fuse level, to the rudder pivot edge.

Your tutorial has been great, MR pointed this out to me, im just reading it through again.

jeffpn
07-16-2012, 11:27 AM
You can either attach the front part of the canopy to the fuse, group it with the fuse, or do nothing, which results in it being parented to the fuse in RF. Any part without the ~CS_ prefix cannot be called up in RF, and will be considered to be a child of it's Max parent. An orphan is considered to be a child of the root object, Fuselage.

Madratter
07-16-2012, 11:28 AM
You will need to create a ~CANOPY material. You will want to assign it to the transparent sections in both objects.

As far as the ~CS names, it actually won't matter much what you call them. I would name the one something like ~CS_CanopyForward and the other ~CS_CanopyAft. They aren't specified in the naming convention:

http://www.knifeedge.com/KEmax/G4%20Artists%20Reference.pdf

Madratter
07-16-2012, 11:30 AM
Here is a tip that you may be interested in MR and it looks like it will help Jed too.
If you have two objects that are touching and verts on the border need to be adjusted for both don't rejoin them or attach them together. Select both objects then apply an editable poly modifier. Now you can edit both objects at the same time. This is how most of the modifiers work especially the unwrap UVW modifier.
Jed, do you mean for the rudder to be in 2 pieces? I could be wrong but that's what it looks like in your pics. The leading edge of the vertical where it meets the fuse dents in. The method I described above will help you fix that. Everything else looks to be smoothing groups to me. If you aren't familiar with smoothing groups check out the modelers tip of the day thread. I have a tutorial on the subject.

You're right. I should have thought about that. I apply modifiers across objects all the time (especially when mapping but other times to). When done just collapse down. I just didn't think of it here. Doh!

Boof69
07-16-2012, 11:31 AM
Hi Boof, I thought I had to cut the V-stab out to create the ~CS_MMVS object, if this is what you mean. So I cut it out of the fuse, along the top fuse level, to the rudder pivot edge.

Your tutorial has been great, MR pointed this out to me, im just reading it through again.

No making the v stab a separate object was correct. I mean the rudder looks to be two separate objects.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 11:42 AM
No making the v stab a separate object was correct. I mean the rudder looks to be two separate objects.

You are quite right, another major boo boo in the modelling, the rudder should in fact be all the way to the bottom.
Thanks for spotting, I shall affect repair immediately.
I've also noticed I have somewhat missed the dual 20mm cannons, how could I miss that!

Boof69
07-16-2012, 11:46 AM
Are you saying I pointed out something obvious?

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 11:59 AM
Glaringly obvious boof, but I had still missed it.

Boof69
07-16-2012, 12:01 PM
Oh I thought you were being sarcastic by comparing a mistake to not modeling guns yet. OK I see.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 12:05 PM
No no, not interested in rubbing people the wrong way, just here to learn from people with experience.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 03:01 PM
Smoother and cleaner, with all the correct ~CS_ tags.

Now just Hierarchy links, pivots and collision mesh, right?

Here's a couple of basic renders:

opjose
07-16-2012, 04:22 PM
Very nice.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 04:24 PM
The hierarchy is complete bar a few objects that I'm unsure of.
I used Flexible's wheels from the parts bin and they have the tags of wheel 'Pupal' and 'wheel shading'.
I guess pupal is tire from the looks of it and that would be linked to corresponding wheel?
Does that shading require a link?

Madratter
07-16-2012, 05:12 PM
I think whatever part is the center and that will have the pivot should be called ~CS_LW or ~CS_RW. Then the other parts should be made a child of that part.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 06:17 PM
All pivots and links complete, I think.

Now just figuring out what a collision mesh is and how to make one/them.

A question: Are all the moving parts controlled via RF6, as in the landing gear movement in conjunction with covers and hatches, or is this 'movable pod' territory?

Any constructive criticism or pointers are very welcome.

Here's a pic, no change really:

jeffpn
07-16-2012, 06:22 PM
Ailerons, flaps, elevators, rudders, and wheels all move by definition. Read the Artist's reference document, and get back with us!!

http://www.knifeedge.com/KEmax/G4%20Artists%20Reference.pdf

abaser
07-16-2012, 06:22 PM
You'll need to assign NUP values for the gear. Not sure how to do that though, since I've never done retracts.:D

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 06:36 PM
Jeffpn, I've read and re-read what there is to read on the reference document, however it assumes a certain level of knowledge of the programme.
To a more experienced modeller, I'm sure the ref doc would answer more questions.
I'm better at 'learning as I do' but am first to admit I was over ambitious with this model being my first attempt at using 3D software.
Thanks to all of you for the hints, tips and patience with my queries. I WILL get this model into my RF whilst I have the time to spend on it.

abaser
07-16-2012, 06:40 PM
How bout this?

http://www.knifeedge.com/KEmax/plane_tutorial.php

Boof69
07-16-2012, 07:02 PM
Gear door will operate by first giving it the appropriated name based on the behavior you would like. Then in max right click on the gear door object and go to object properties/user defined to enter the NUP values. This is usually 2 lines. The first line is NUP_MaxRotation?(where ? is the axis of rotation)=amount of rotation in degrees.
IE. NUP_MaxRotationY=92.6
The second line is to trigger it based on the landing gear it's dependent on
So for a gear door for the ~CS_LG landing gear you would type:
NUP_LandingGear=~CS_LG
The landing gear will also need a single NUP line and that is just the line for rotation'
NUP_MaxRotationY=85
Now when you set up the landing gear in RF and assign a retract servo everything will just work.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 07:08 PM
I'm not saying the info isn't out there, I'm jumping the gun if anything.

I've read the above tutorial, this is where I started thinking about the moving parts.
How I see it; The wheels rotate due to the pivots set, and the control surfaces work the same. RF sees the ~CS object and knows its pivot point, the RF Physics set up does the rest.
The retracts and hatches are animated via the NUP values, set in Max, but I was stuck on how to test the values given to rotate, especially as I believe the spitfire main gear will need to retract in multiple axis.
How does the pivot set on the canopy enable it to slide?
Also it states to test the model in RF prior to collision meshes, so I thought I was just one step away from being export ready.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 07:10 PM
Thanks Boof

Boof69
07-16-2012, 07:22 PM
To test rotation of a part in max use the rotate tool and set the coordinate system to "local" Then while looking down the axis of rotation with the arrow pointing away from you rotate the part until satisfied and note the degrees - or +(before releasing the left mouse button click the right mouse button and the rotation will be undone).
If you need rotation in multiple axis use a new NUP line for each axis or for more control you will make dummy objects to parent the part to with NUP values set in the dummy's user defined section.
A couple of things will help you slide the canopy the simplest way being to move the canopy pivot far below the canopy itself and using a small amount of rotation. The other is the scissor pivot method that involves dummy objects to give 2 more pivot locations. I use the first method most of the time.
Even If your polys are high you should be able to export a kex without a collision mesh if not on the first attempt the second attempt will pass.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 07:46 PM
Excellent, thanks again Boof. with this I should be able to get it into RF to see how good, or bad, it looks.
Then off to read the physics tutorials.

Boof69
07-16-2012, 07:53 PM
No problem man. Your model looks good keep it up.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 09:41 PM
So close..

.KEX Export-

Error: The model uses too few bitmap materials. Please reconfigure the model to use exactly one bitmap.

What did or didn't I do?

abaser
07-16-2012, 09:43 PM
You need to map something and apply the .tga.

jeffpn
07-16-2012, 09:45 PM
Map your spinner. It's easy to do, and it doesn't show.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Spinner sounds a good option right now, well maybe tomorrow. Thanks all

jeffpn
07-16-2012, 09:49 PM
You know what? I meant your ~CS_ENGINE component (prop placeholder), not your spinner! Sorry bout that!!

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 09:52 PM
That would appear, to me, to be even easier.

Out of curiosity, how do I find my triangle count? With MR's stunning FE2b at over 1900, im interested to know how much I have left for future work.

Madratter
07-16-2012, 09:57 PM
You need to map something and apply the .tga.

And here is where he starts to lose his sanity.

Jed, select some really easy part for now. You can even make it something inconspicuous and not really worry about it looking wrong for now.

Create a material that points to your .tga file that you will be using as a map file. I would suggest you make its size 4096x4096. For now, it can have anything you want in it.

To create the material, using the compact material editor you would go under maps and then click next to diffuse color. Select Bitmap as the type. Then select your tga file.

Assign that material to some object. Then add a UVW unwrap modifier to that object. You don't actually need to unwrap it properly for now. The default (which will be horrible) will work.

Now you should be able to export.

Madratter
07-16-2012, 10:03 PM
That would appear, to me, to be even easier.

Out of curiosity, how do I find my triangle count? With MR's stunning FE2b at over 1900, im interested to know how much I have left for future work.

Right click on the last part of the view port text in the upper left of your view port. It probably says something like shaded or wireframe. Select configure. There is a statistics tab. Make sure you have checked "Show Statistics in Active View". Make sure triangle count is checked. I use the Total selection, but do whatever is useful for you.

phrank
07-16-2012, 10:06 PM
For a test import, he should probably go the other way, something small like 256x256 or 512x512.

Jed_Sanders
07-16-2012, 10:10 PM
Wow, loads of room for improvement!

Polys: 10,188
Tris: 10,212
Verts: 5,562

abaser
07-16-2012, 10:23 PM
Just to be on the safe side, there are a couple different poly counters. The one I use now, is located under the wrench tab>more>polygon counter. There is also one if you hit "7". That one about got me in trouble as it says polys, but is counting faces, not tris,

This shows what Im talking about.

Boof69
07-16-2012, 10:55 PM
Just for the clarity you don't need to map anything for your trial export. Just apply a material that has and attached external .tga to any single part. Any parts that don't have materials assigned in the material editor will inherit the tga material by default.

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the tips guys.

I know I would eventually need to learn some sort of mapping, I followed boofs tute on the subject, and picked a relatively simple inconspicuous object, and now I have these.

Now just figuring out what to do with them (.tga's and materials reading time)!

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 10:27 AM
Am I heading in the right direction?
Trying to follow felx's max for dummies tute but useing 2011 max, I dont have the same views.
How do I link my selected bitmap of the tire doors to the model object?

flexible
07-17-2012, 10:35 AM
Add a Cube, and Map it in Wings, import and Merge it with the Max file, then Assign it. When you no longer need it, Deleate it.

Boof69
07-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Am I heading in the right direction?
Trying to follow felx's max for dummies tute but useing 2011 max, I dont have the same views.
How do I link my selected bitmap of the tire doors to the model object?

Long press on the material editor icon and select the first icon to get the compact material editor.

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 11:16 AM
Long press on the material editor icon and select the first icon to get the compact material editor.

Thanks again boof.


I'm now in RF:D! It is great to see something I've worked on for so many hours, actually in the sim. Its got a load of errors, things don't look like they fit, parts not parented properly, lots of ugly edges and somewhat smaller than I thought I had built, but I'm over the moon!

This is something I can learn from and continue to develop both the physics and 3D model, especially as I have lots of tris to play with , for now.

Here's a good giggle:

Madratter
07-17-2012, 11:37 AM
Thanks again boof.


I'm now in RF:D! It is great to see something I've worked on for so many hours, actually in the sim. Its got a load of errors, things don't look like they fit, parts not parented properly, lots of ugly edges and somewhat smaller than I thought I had built, but I'm over the moon!

This is something I can learn from and continue to develop both the physics and 3D model, especially as I have lots of tris to play with , for now.

Here's a good giggle:

Congrats! And although there are some obvious things wrong, there are a lot of things that are done right too. :)

Boof69
07-17-2012, 11:40 AM
To scale your model select all parts use the scale tool to adjust the model. You will want to go to Customize/unit setup.../ and set units to Metric or US standard. Then open the utilities tab (Hammer icon) on the right hand menu then click on the "Measure" button. While scaling watch the X dimension to get the desired wing span.
Then I suggest you use the move tool to center the model in the world axis of max. On the grid you will notice darker lines delineating the center X and Y axis. Put that center where you believe the CG and thrust line intersect on the model. Then export and setup physics. If you set up the physics then adjust the model you will then have to realign the RF wireframe.

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 11:47 AM
Thanks MR, I just been looking at it RF!
The very glossy dark blue texture its using is very useful to see the shading errors and bad geometry.

Just found dhk79's physics tutorial for a fresh build, very apt as he's using a Spitfire. Would a tute for a 2007 version of RF lead me astray?
Firstly, I need to figure out what's wrong and how to rectify it.

Boof69
07-17-2012, 11:51 AM
The lessons taught in DHK79's tutorial remain true today.

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 11:58 AM
Great, it looks like just the tutorial I need.

Thanks for the scale and CG/Thrust line centre methods.

Fly_electric
07-17-2012, 11:59 AM
Thanks again boof.


I'm now in RF:D! It is great to see something I've worked on for so many hours, actually in the sim. Its got a load of errors, things don't look like they fit, parts not parented properly, lots of ugly edges and somewhat smaller than I thought I had built, but I'm over the moon!

This is something I can learn from and continue to develop both the physics and 3D model, especially as I have lots of tris to play with , for now.

Here's a good giggle:

"HA HA HA" Great designer notes! :D
You're doing great Jed.

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 01:01 PM
I want to make a start on the Physics but I guess I should address the errors I'm getting in import.
The errors shown are:
Plane refers to missing component frame ~CS_RW ~CS_LW ~CS_CANOPY ~CS_SW.
Landing gear child has no frame.

Other than that an issue I can see is the frame for the canopy has vanished, in max.

flexible
07-17-2012, 01:28 PM
These errors, "~CS_RW ~CS_LW ~CS_CANOPY ~CS_SW.", will go away once you build and assign them in the RF editor.

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 01:52 PM
Ah, OK thanks. However My RF has crashed on me too many times to start afresh yet again.
Until another day.

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 10:26 PM
Back in Max trying to clean up some verts, and I cannot seem to manipulate them or check smoothing. I believe its something to do with the Poly Select modifier that is on, somehow.
When I try to get back to editable Poly I get a warning message about changing will have unwanted effects.
Could any of you Max gurus tell me what I've done?

Boof69
07-17-2012, 10:30 PM
Are you talking about this warning?

Jed_Sanders
07-17-2012, 10:36 PM
I get this one:

Boof69
07-17-2012, 10:38 PM
Just right click the poly select and "collapse to" all should be fine.

Jed_Sanders
07-18-2012, 09:40 PM
Thanks again to all of you that have have helped me through my incessant questions and errors.

The Spitfire lives!
dhk's tutorial was superb and I can now work on getting it flying right.
I will need to get back to Max and fix the shading issues and a few 'minor' issues like the gear coming through the wings, when retracted, as well as the missing canopy frame.
The animated tail gear, main gear and tire doors look great!

jeffpn
07-18-2012, 09:50 PM
Don't ever hesitate to ask modeling questions here.*

*As long as you're willing to put in an effort to teach yourself.

Boof69
07-18-2012, 09:58 PM
Thanks again to all of you that have have helped me through my incessant questions and errors.

The Spitfire lives!
dhk's tutorial was superb and I can now work on getting it flying right.
I will need to get back to Max and fix the shading issues and a few 'minor' issues like the gear coming through the wings, when retracted, as well as the missing canopy frame.
The animated tail gear, main gear and tire doors look great!

As for the glass in your canopy, you can delete the inner pieces as it isn't necessary when you use the ~CANOPY material. You will save polys too!

jeffpn
07-19-2012, 07:21 AM
I thought about mentioning that as well. The flip side to that is naming the material something generic, instead of ~CANOPY. Then you wouldn't see the other faces. I've done it that way on a few of my models, especially the ones with just a windshield, instead of an enclosed canopy.

Jed_Sanders
07-19-2012, 01:26 PM
Still playing with the physics, something that is very rewarding I must say.
Quick question; Is the reason for the lack of ground physics, i.e. not rolling on runway, due to the fact I have no collision mesh, especially for the wheels?
If so, I think I'm going to look into C-meshes.
So far I think it flies OK, but I have only touched the basics of dhk79's tute and I have limited real world experience on scale war-birds. Can anyone recommend an RF6 model (I don't have the Plane Mega Pack) that is true to life, to get my eye in as it were.

Boof69
07-19-2012, 01:36 PM
I am over 18,000 polys with my current project and still no C-mesh and everything is just fine. The issue would have to be another issue. Most likely the naming conventions.

Jed_Sanders
07-26-2012, 03:08 PM
I received the above error message and hoping someone can assist, in how to fix.

The current Spit is a version newer in RF. As I only have the one .TGA image I have re-used and re-named it map2.tga, to enable me in to import into RF using the same basic map.

Is there an easy fix for this? I've not touched on the CS side of things, just trying to move forward with both Physics and 3D Model. Quite close to a new KEX so can delete this version, as soon as I can get the new one into its physics model.

Also, is re-using the same image, with a new name for new KEX imports, okay to do. Or is this what caused my current issue?

Boof69
07-26-2012, 03:22 PM
I don't know what is causing your issue but I can suggest a method to do successive kex imports without worrying about ruining physics setups or renaming the CS. Make one kex export and do the setup. Then if you have a new revision just export a kex with another name. When you import it the CS will overwrite.

Jed_Sanders
07-26-2012, 03:24 PM
OK, great.
As soon as I'm ready in Max, I will just import with a new KEX name.

Thanks

Boof69
07-26-2012, 03:36 PM
I usually name it the same as the original followed by "_alt"

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 03:45 PM
I don't rename the .kex export when I modify the 3D file. I reimport the new .kex into RF, only overwriting the 3D model. Pick any model as the physics base. It will prompt you to overwrite 3 things. Say no to the CS, yes to the 3D model, and no to the AV. Only the 3D model will change. The CS and AV will remain the same.

Boof69
07-26-2012, 04:38 PM
Whatever works.:)

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 04:41 PM
Both get the job done. ;)

willsonman
07-26-2012, 04:49 PM
I do it Jeff's way. Just keeps things simple in terms of number of files you have to juggle.

Jed_Sanders
07-26-2012, 04:53 PM
Thanks to both of you. Very handy when trying different imports out.
I think I'm just paranoid I might over-write my many hours worth of physics.

Just about to import and realised I was missing an object. The _LMF is a different shade in max as well as in the hierarchy schematic. I cannot select it as an object with a group 'drag' select of the entire scene.
Any ideas?

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 05:14 PM
I think I'm just paranoid I might over-write my many hours worth of physics.

You could export an EA just before reimporting the .kex, if it makes you feel better. I've been known to do that when I'm having trouble with files that don't want to play nice together, like the renamed EA Willsonman sent me for the Hansa. Nightmare!!. As long as you say no to importing the physics (AV) during the .kex reimport, you won't overwrite the physics.


Just about to import and realised I was missing an object. The _LMF is a different shade in max as well as in the hierarchy schematic. I cannot select it as an object with a group 'drag' select of the entire scene.
Any ideas?

How about a Max screenshot? I'm not following.

Jed_Sanders
07-26-2012, 06:08 PM
I have found I can select all 33 objects if I select them in the schematic view,but I dont want to 'cheat' if there is a problem here.

A pic:

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 06:11 PM
Is it locked? I don't know if you can lock objects in Max, like you can in Wings. I'm the Wings expert. Boof is the Max expert.

Boof69
07-26-2012, 06:17 PM
Yes you can lock objects a bit too easily in Max. Select it and hit the spacebar.

Jed_Sanders
07-26-2012, 06:28 PM
I've done that before. However, in this instance that's not the case.
If I select using the schematic view the lock icon is indeed off.
After selecting the LMF I had a look around but cant see anything strange, but then again I don't really know what I'm looking for.

If I mouse hover over the LMF, I get no name label, like any other object. Its like Max doesn't see it separate from the LMW. But it does show in the schematic.
I know its something I've done, as I was just modifying the pivot angles on both flaps.

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 06:39 PM
You didn't use the Group command, did you?

Jed_Sanders
07-26-2012, 06:42 PM
You didn't use the Group command, did you?

I hope not.. I don't know what it is:eek::D

All object including the LMF are all just editable poly's, no modifiers.

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 06:50 PM
It's a command under the column headers, at leat the way I use it. You're sure to get some help if you care to post your Max file here. Just add a .rfx to the entire filename.

Madratter
07-26-2012, 06:52 PM
I hope not.. I don't know what it is:eek::D

All object including the LMF are all just editable poly's, no modifiers.

It isn't a grouping problem. That shows up differently.

Boof69
07-26-2012, 06:56 PM
send me the file jed. I don't remember running into this problem but I'm sure I can figure it out.

Madratter
07-26-2012, 07:01 PM
Looking at the problem further, and based on the shading in the schematic view and what is showing, I think you have simply hidden the part by accident. All you need to do is go to the display tab and unhide all.

jeffpn
07-26-2012, 07:05 PM
It does look hidden, but there's something in it's place. Good eye, MR! I'll have to update the Experts list!!

Jed_Sanders
07-26-2012, 07:12 PM
Looking at the problem further, and based on the shading in the schematic view and what is showing, I think you have simply hidden the part by accident. All you need to do is go to the display tab and unhide all.

Thanks for the input MR. I did thin it may be a 'hide' issue after messing with pivots but it's all 'un-hidden'. The display tab icon you refer to is greyed out and the usual right click - unhide, doesn't change anything.

Boof has my file so I'm sure he will spot the User to Keyboard interface error.

Boof69
07-26-2012, 07:18 PM
Right click/ unfreeze all

Jed_Sanders
07-26-2012, 07:22 PM
Right click/ unfreeze all

You're a legend boof!

I don't remember freezing anything :confused:

Now off the RF to see if it all worked...

Boof69
07-26-2012, 07:44 PM
If your not seeing the ribbon go to customize/show ribbon.

Jed_Sanders
08-07-2012, 07:37 PM
Still working on the fresh Max Mk24, all be it in slow time, it's coming along but I have a few questions regarding mesh flow.

The part I'm currently working on is the canopy, not finally shaped yet, and want to know what is the best way to blend in the canopy to the fuse? I've attached a pic to help explain.

Should I be adding more loops to the fuse, to carry more detail down? what's the best way to break up the big NGon.

Any mesh flow tips are welcome.
Thanks.

jeffpn
08-07-2012, 08:02 PM
I'd do it the other way. If it were mine, I'd lose every other edge loop, going lengthwise and going across, on the canopy. Especially on a part that's going to end up being clear. It is personal preference, though.

Boof69
08-07-2012, 08:05 PM
The simple answer is Lower the resolution in the canopy first. You don't need that many edges to define a curve for RF. (see pic. 1)Let the smoothing groups do the work of making something look rounder,within reason anyways. The lateral edgeloops can do more of the work of rounding things too with less connection to the fuse. (see pic. 2) After the fuse and canopy connections are reduced it should be easier to see how to make the connections to get back to all 4 sided polys. The last pic shows the end result once the smoothing and CS is done. The CS will also help to disguise lower poly modeling.

Boof69
08-07-2012, 08:21 PM
Just an another example of low poly edge flow. Notice the wing tip. With this type of tip I try to change to a radial edge flow to keep the polys lower. Although as you can see in the other pic that it doesn't work too well for the vertical and rudder because of the position of the hinge line. The situation is much the same for the horizontal.

Jed_Sanders
08-07-2012, 08:45 PM
Thanks guys.. Boof, your pics helped a lot. I cant believe how simple and clean, your meshes look.

I was thinking If I remove the loops then the quality of the shape would suffer. I was trying to add verts to increase the resolution of the canopy.

After the suggestions I now have something that I'm a lot happier with and can progress to finessing the shape.
Its the rear section of canopy, with a wrap around shape, that im struggling with.

Boof69
08-07-2012, 09:20 PM
Its very hard to explain allot of this stuff in posts. I wish I had more free time right now to do a video to help out.

willsonman
08-07-2012, 09:22 PM
Yeah, Smoothing groups is an entirely new subject for me. I'm an old dog that may learn a new trick one day.

jeffpn
08-07-2012, 09:32 PM
WM, if you understand hard edges from Wings, you're halfway to understanding smoothing groups in Max.

Jed_Sanders
08-16-2012, 09:16 AM
I've been working away on my max build and I have reached the point where I can start the wings.

The spitfire has quite a large fillet that joins the wing to the fuse and this is causing me troubles. I have lofted the H-Stabs from the fuse and I'm happy with the rough shape.
When trying to create these fillets from the fuse, by using the blending method (inset/shape/extrude), I end up in a mess. When using the lofting method, the fillet doesn't look right as its not blended to, or part of, the fuse.

So what I'm asking is, what recommendations do you all have for modelling this type of wing design?

Also, a question on the canopy frame. I have made a rough shape of the frame, and flattened out the screen, What would be the best way to create the frame/inset the glass?

I've added a few pictures to help explain:
1, Current max progress.
2, Mk1 Spitfire showing cross section of fillet and wing root.
3, Mk24 Spitfire reference pic.
4, Canopy frame layout.

Boof69
08-16-2012, 10:36 AM
First of Jed go to 0:Program files(x86)/Autodesk/3ds Max 2012 right click on "3dsmax.exe." then the "Compatibility tab" and at the very bottom tick "Run this program as an administrator. Then start up max and go to "Customize/Preferences/Viewports tab at the bottom go to "Configure Driver...". Tick "Match Bitmap Size as Closely as Possible" in both boxes. If that doesn't fix the problem with the choppy 3 views in the viewport then copy the attached file, inside the zip, into your 3ds Max install directory and overwrite the original.

Boof69
08-16-2012, 10:52 AM
Let me answer you second question first. It's important to be happy with the frame and window shaping first so go over it and tweak until it's perfect.Now select the window and frame polys and find the detach button and detach them from the fuse. Now select just the frame Polys and detach. Now you can use a "shell" modifier on the frame to give it dimension. A negative value for the shell will do the trick. Now detach each window segment so that you have separate panes and move each inward a bit to be inset to the frame. I suggest you one axis of movement at a time to adjust. When your happy select the frame and click on the attach button and click on each window pane and finally select the fuse and click on attach and select the canopy. Each of the objects will now be selectable using the "Element" selection type. Once you start welding verts between the fuse and frame they will become the same object again and will no longer be elements.

Jed_Sanders
08-16-2012, 10:57 AM
Thanks boof, I had been having an issue with that, as you could see.
I had checked the 'match bitmap size' boxes many times, but the result would not stay after re-loading. I guess it was due to not running as administrator.
Two planes are now nice and clear, but the side view has vanished and will not attach. Using the material editor and loading a fresh side image, I cannot get it to show. 'show in viewport' is selected and 'show frozen in grey', in the plane display properties, is not selected.
I'm just going to re-make the side view-plane and start again.

-Thanks for the canopy work through. I will continue cleaning up the canopy and create the elements.

Boof69
08-16-2012, 11:03 AM
I wish you had some pics of the "mess" that you end up with. I know that if you use the inset and extrude method that the extra resolution you have on the belly of this model may be a problem. You could remove some of the lines there running from nose to tail. When you inset the selected polys use "edge" and "face" type constraints to help keep everything in line with the fuse shape while forming your wing shape. Use the cut tool to draw in any extra resolution you may need to get the shape right. When you inset , outline, bevel, extrude, or bridge you are creating new faces. Select those faces and add them to the fuse's smoothing group. Delete all the polys within you new shape then use the border selection type to select the hole then click "Cap". Now hopefully there is no mess. Select that poly and extrude to the full length of the wing. Now shape the tip and add edge loops along the wing and shape the wing tip to root. It's a method that you tweak until it's right.

Jed_Sanders
08-18-2012, 01:11 PM
I wish you had some pics of the "mess" that you end up with.

As you wish boof :D

Here is my current progress after some playing with the fairings and wings, as well as following boof's guide for the canopy.

The fairing still need work to get the correct blend, from wing to canopy.
Still a way to go, but if anyone spots anything amiss or awry, please feel free to let me know.

Jed_Sanders
08-21-2012, 03:36 PM
Somehow during the process of building the frame and moving the glass, my canopy frame has split and attached a few verts that shouldn't be attached.

Pictures below is what I am trying to fix. I have a gap in the frame that I just can't close.
Could someone advice a method to close this?

Boof69
08-21-2012, 03:39 PM
It looks like there are faces inside that gap. Just delete them the under the edge selection type use the "target weld" tool to snap things closed.

Jed_Sanders
08-23-2012, 02:29 PM
I've been chipping away at jobs on the Mk 24.

A few questions, what's a good way to get the control surfaces to hinge, visually?
I have used Boof's concealed hinges for the Ailerons but the Rudder and Elevators shape makes this more tricky.
Also as you can see my blisters have a shading error, the entire wing surface is one s.group. Is this due to the way I have connected the vert's to surrounding quads?

Other than that, the new additions of gear doors, wheels and wheel wells have gone smoothly.

I'm trying to figure out a way to create the split flaps at present. Would the best route be detach the entire flap (like the aileron), then split in two, then re-attach the upper section?

As usual, here's to pics to help explain:

Boof69
08-23-2012, 03:12 PM
what's a good way to get the control surfaces to hinge, visually?

This question is unclear to me. Do you mean what the hinges look like? or do you mean how do you test rotate them in Max?

Also as you can see my blisters have a shading error, the entire wing surface is one s.group. Is this due to the way I have connected the vert's to surrounding quads?

First off did you put the blisters in their own smoothing group?

I'm trying to figure out a way to create the split flaps at present. Would the best route be detach the entire flap (like the aileron), then split in two, then re-attach the upper section?

On the bottom side of the wing use the cut tool to draw in the flap. Then detach those polys. Now create the flap pocket in the wing. Select all of those polys that make up the pocket and detach as clone. select the cloned polys and select all of the polys then hit the "flip" button to turn the polys. Now attach them to the polys detached earlier from the wing to make the flap. That should do it.

Jed_Sanders
08-23-2012, 03:41 PM
I meant the shape of the leading edge, enabling the control surface to rotate without colliding with the stab geometry.

Blisters were the same as wing. Now a different group and all looks cleaner.

Thanks for your help Boof.

Boof69
08-23-2012, 03:55 PM
I imagine you will need some good reference pics of that area. Share those images and I will help you figure out how to model it.

Jed_Sanders
08-24-2012, 04:48 PM
After 6.6k dots clicked, dragged and connected I have something that is very close to RF ready.
It weighs in at only 12.9k triangles, so lots of room to add detail to the cockpit and airframe.
If anyone spots anything inaccurate or incorrect with the model, or geometry, then please let me know.
I've made some very basic renders to show my results:

Jed_Sanders
08-24-2012, 04:50 PM
and a wire-frame:

willsonman
08-24-2012, 05:51 PM
TIps of your H-stabs could be a bit more rounded if you want to spend the polygons. I would make functioning flaps for the scoops as well.

Boof69
08-24-2012, 06:54 PM
Jed You sure have come a long way on the remodeling of the spit from your first attempt. The edge flow is much cleaner and better thought out. I think it may have something to do with relying on the tools and modifiers rather than the vert by vert tweaking you were obviously doing on your first model. I am very impressed with this model. That said I would think that you could remove some of the edges running along the top of the fuselage. I know that you need them near the canopy to keep the transition but they shouldn't run all the way out to the nose and tail. Terminate them in the very next row to keep that poly count down. You may not see the need to do that with this model but keep it in mind for the next. Below is an edited version of you wireframe pic to show you where I think you could loose some edges.

I agree with Willsonman on both of his points.

Jed_Sanders
08-24-2012, 07:26 PM
Wilsonman: do you mean a smoother curve, as viewed from top, or the aerofoil shape?
I can certainly spare the dots to round the corners out. The scoop flaps wont be difficult, I'll add them in.

Boof: Thanks for all your help in Max, your tips and tool hints have saved time and, as you say, results in a much cleaner look.
Your edited image is great, helps explain things no end. Thanks for taking the time to doctor it.

With poly's being saved on simplifying the fuse, it looks like some more detail and fettling will have to be done to use them up. Well maybe not all 20k of them.

Boof69
08-24-2012, 07:32 PM
Always glad to help whenever I can.

willsonman
08-24-2012, 08:49 PM
From the top-view. These curvy models can really eat the polys in a hurry so be strategic. I've not seen any landing gear close-ups. Maybe add some detail there as well. There have been some exceptional models that use brake lines and the works. See the corsair Boof did.
http://www.knifeedge.com/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=16324
There are lots of little things that you may want to add on the outside before you get to the cockpit that may be considered first. For example: what is your power plant? will it protrude through the front cowl on a scale model? Keep in mind there are lots of options out there for the narrow-nose cowl airplanes. RCV engines seem to be quite popular as they are super low profile and have gobs of power. Inlines are also an option the IL-300 from O.S. might be a consideration but I am not sure the size of model you are planning. Look into it. Add the realism. You are well on your way to being an above-average modeler here. Keep up the great work.

Jed_Sanders
08-25-2012, 05:30 PM
New rear landing gear and some rounding out of the H-Stabs:

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 01:08 PM
Having some issues with NUP's and wanted to post a few images up to see if anyone can spot anything wrong.

The NUP values I'm using for the left side:

1, ~CS_LG:
NUP_MaxRotationY=100
2, ~CS_GD1_leftgeardoor:
NUP_MaxRotationX=95
NUP_LandingGear=~CS_LG
3, ~CS_GD1_leftgeardoor_helper:
NUP_MaxRotationY=-30
NUP_LandingGear=~CS_LG
4, ~CS_GD4_lefttiredoor:
NUP_MaxRotationY=-85
5, ~CS_SG:
NUP_MaxRotationX=-65
5, ~CS_GD2_lefttaildoor:
NUP_MaxRotationY=-25

As you can see from the RF image, there is something amiss with the landing gear. Rotation angles in max were spot on, but in RF it appears they're somewhat short. As well as the gear door not linking to the gear strut.

Also, I have used a 2D plane for the ~CS_ENGINE but this shows up as a big flat square in RF. No prop.
In the editor, the option of show wireframe and visuals, only displays the wire frame. Visuals can be seen if only visual view is selected.

I think it looks much better than the last build, so quite happy so far.

Here's a few pics of the Hierarchy and RF shot:

Boof69
08-26-2012, 01:18 PM
first off make sure all of the gear doors have a NUP_LandingGear= line.Some of yours do not.
Go to the engine and in the component list pick ~CS_ENGINE. It most likely has ~CS_ENGINE1 from the original plane you imported as.
Try a darker color for the model. It may help it show in the editor.

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 01:37 PM
Thanks Boof.

The canopy has now moved, the wheels have moved down, the tail doors don't close and the gear doors are all over the shop.

But now with all the correct NUP details, its just a case of going over each one ensuring the correct axis and offsets are used.

Thanks for your help.

Boof69
08-26-2012, 01:42 PM
Just as a tip: To know for sure your rotation values are correct look down the axis of rotation with the arrow pointing away from you. If you rotate clockwise use positive rotation values. If counterclockwise use negative rotation values. Also if the doors that are using helpers for rotation don't work right even after what we spoke about swap the axis between the gear door and the helper.

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 01:50 PM
With NUP axis swapped between dummy and door and correct offset used, I'm closer.

The tail and gear doors close flush, like the tire doors in Max, but something I've done is lessening the effect with the tail doors. Also not entirely sure why the canopy has moved and why the wheels are now lower than they should be.

Back to Max for some fettling.

Boof69
08-26-2012, 01:53 PM
The canopy is probably moved to that location as a remnant from the aircraft you used as the import model. Send me your max file and I can help.

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 02:12 PM
Cheers Boof, on its way!

jeffpn
08-26-2012, 02:54 PM
Boof, isn't there seething about setting to Local in Max? Isn't that what he could be missing for accurate NUP values?

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 03:25 PM
Boof, isn't there seething about setting to Local in Max? Isn't that what he could be missing for accurate NUP values?

Hi Jeff, I'm certainly not ruling anything out with my limited knowledge.
I am however rotating the gear doors in the local view.
I closed the tail doors back up, sorted the pivots and then snap rotated them out to open.
If I use the local view and rotate the tail doors as per the NUP value, they close nice and snug. Just not in RF yet.

Boof69
08-26-2012, 03:45 PM
I'm going over his file right now. His dependency NUP line was wrong. Also He had a few underscores where he needed a tilda. I still have a problem with one gear door. It's close though.

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 03:49 PM
Thanks for doing this boof.
I had picked up on the missing tilda for the scoop name, but not sure what the incorrect dependencies are.
I look forward to finding out where I went wrong.

Boof69
08-26-2012, 04:16 PM
The tail wheel gear door dependencies were set to them selves.

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 04:27 PM
Ah, OK thanks boof.

So as per the gear doors, the tail gear doors have to be dependant on the gear ~CS_ gear tag.
Thanks for taking a look, I've changed the dependencies and the missing ~.

Boof69
08-26-2012, 04:32 PM
There are other problems with the axis you used too. I'll send you a fixed Max file when it's sussed out.

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 06:07 PM
After Boof's magic touch, all is well with my Spitfire.
There is lots of room for improvement, but I'm over the moon with the results so far.

Here's a few pics in RF and one of the old wonky spit for comparison:

Madratter
08-26-2012, 06:18 PM
Huge Improvement. Oh yeah! :D

jeffpn
08-26-2012, 06:20 PM
Make sure you're learning!! ;)

Boof69
08-26-2012, 06:31 PM
He is Jeff. I sent him notes explaining what I did and he has his original file for comparison.

jeffpn
08-26-2012, 06:46 PM
I know how you Max types are. I was just making sure!!! :D

Boof69
08-26-2012, 06:50 PM
It's no different than handing a project over for physics tweaks. Communicating by PM or email is slow if not impossible in some cases. This is just expediting the process.:)

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 07:32 PM
Huge Improvement. Oh yeah! :D

Thanks MR, I'm quite pleased with the results so far.
Still, there's things that require attention, so quite a way off yet.

willsonman
08-26-2012, 08:55 PM
Keep in mind with springy scale landing gear in the physics editor the wheels will sag from their original location in MAX in the RF editor because it is as if the model is suspended in air. Once on the ground it will compress the wheels under the weight of the plane. Sometimes you can fudge this around with wheel placement in max to get it to sit where you want. You can also try messing with the springiness of the gear in the physics editor.

Jed_Sanders
08-26-2012, 10:22 PM
Ah, that makes perfect sense. Thanks Willsonman

Any ideas on the best way to utilise the working scoop flaps, throttle linked or three position switch?

willsonman
08-26-2012, 10:32 PM
throttle linked for sure.

Jed_Sanders
09-02-2012, 04:43 PM
I'm having a few problems with my RF imports.
Everything imports, based on my previous physics work, but this time I cannot get both the visual and wireframe model to show in the editor. They show when isolated but when you opt to see both, the visual model disappears.

Have any of you experienced this before?

The errors I receive in RF are due to this being a new 3d model, so names of canopy etc. are different. However, I'm not sure about the landing gear child component message.

Pics:

Madratter
09-02-2012, 06:02 PM
I'm having a few problems with my RF imports.
Everything imports, based on my previous physics work, but this time I cannot get both the visual and wireframe model to show in the editor. They show when isolated but when you opt to see both, the visual model disappears.

Have any of you experienced this before?

The errors I receive in RF are due to this being a new 3d model, so names of canopy etc. are different. However, I'm not sure about the landing gear child component message.

Pics:

I don't know Jed. I haven't had that problem where the visual model disappears when showing wireframe and visual. That is pretty odd.

Boof69
09-02-2012, 06:17 PM
Just a crazy outside shot but re-save the tga at 24 bits. This will eleiminate the possibility of alpha issues.

jeffpn
09-02-2012, 06:26 PM
Can you show the schematic of the part names in Max? I'm wondering about naming and hierarchy.

Jed_Sanders
09-02-2012, 06:54 PM
Just a crazy outside shot but re-save the tga at 24 bits. This will eleiminate the possibility of alpha issues.

Got to love those crazy outside shots!
tga re-saved as 24 bit, added in max and imported. All working!

Everyday is a school day!

Boof69
09-02-2012, 06:55 PM
Cool! Glad it's fixed.:)

willsonman
09-02-2012, 10:11 PM
Good call. I would have never thought of that.

Jed_Sanders
10-15-2012, 04:53 PM
I'm back in Max and trying to rectify a few problems.

When my landing gear is up in the sim, the wheels raise above the wing, popping out on top. The landing gear strut is rotated to the minimal value to clear the gear doors when retracted.
So I can either make the wing thicker or the wheel thinner, but neither of those seem right compared to the 3-views.

The wheels, when retracted, look like they need to be lower and rotated about the Z axis to fit, but I am unsure of how to make that so.

Any ideas?

jeffpn
10-15-2012, 05:12 PM
but neither of those seem right compared to the 3-views.
Imperferct 3 views

Artistic liberty


What a wonderful world!!!

Jed_Sanders
10-15-2012, 05:26 PM
Imperferct 3 views

Artistic liberty


What a wonderful world!!!

I have changed both wheel and wing thickness' but they don't look right compared to my 3-views or any image I have seen of the actual Mk22.
I know I can make them fit that way, but I was asking if there was a way to align the wheel, to save the geometry I have.

Boof69
10-15-2012, 05:37 PM
Jed have you heard of helper object in Max yet?

Jed_Sanders
10-15-2012, 06:00 PM
Thanks for the hint, I'm working on the NUP values to link the wheel to the dummy helper object, and that to the landing gear. This should get the desired rotation.

Jed_Sanders
11-09-2012, 07:23 PM
A quick question for the max users..

I am trying to create a flat object that will be the radiators/coolers found in the rectangular cooling ducts, located under the wing. Looking at the real deal, I think mapping them in will do.
What I am trying to do is create an object from the edge loop selected in the below image. What I'm looking for is something like the cap tool found when selecting a border.

Thanks.

abaser
11-09-2012, 07:31 PM
Will anything be visible behind that area? Can you delete the ring of faces directly behind your selected edge loop and cap both sides?

Im not that familiar with that plane, so Im really not sure where that is that you are showing.

Jed_Sanders
11-09-2012, 07:39 PM
Abaser, the image is showing the radiator/cooling duct under the wing. The same duct is shown on post 213. I want to add in a flat object so I can map both back and front. The back of the object will be seen/mapped as it can be seen from the rear.
Here is the image of the real one:

Madratter
11-09-2012, 07:42 PM
A quick question for the max users..

I am trying to create a flat object that will be the radiators/coolers found in the rectangular cooling ducts, located under the wing. Looking at the real deal, I think mapping them in will do.
What I am trying to do is create an object from the edge loop selected in the below image. What I'm looking for is something like the cap tool found when selecting a border.

Thanks.

Certainly what Andy suggests is one method. Another would be to clone the object, delete almost all of the polygons except those that would create the border you need, cap it, and then delete the remaining original polygons. That sounds involved but it isn't that hard and doesn't take me that much time. What you are left with is a new object with the face you want. You can then leave it separate or attach it to the original object.

Madratter
11-09-2012, 07:44 PM
Abaser, the image is showing the radiator/cooling duct under the wing. The same duct is shown on post 213. I want to add in a flat object so I can map both back and front. The back of the object will be seen/mapped as it can be seen from the rear.
Here is the image of the real one:

To map front and back, you will need to clone the object that I just described how to create. Then offset it slightly backwards. You cannot have two designs on the two sides of the same polygon.

EDIT: Unless you want both sides to show exactly the same thing. Then use a ~SBS material when mapping.

Jed_Sanders
11-09-2012, 07:49 PM
Thanks for the hints guys, I was working on Abaser's method as you posted. It worked a treat!

Boof69
11-09-2012, 08:13 PM
This is how I would do what your looking for. Hope it helps. I'll post this in the MTOTD thread as well.

Jed_Sanders
11-09-2012, 08:24 PM
I was so close! During my attempts, I had found the 'create shape from selection' but was missing the liner step as well as the converting into a poly. Thanks for taking the time to create the tutorial Boof, much appreciated.

Flare
11-10-2012, 06:56 PM
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/123.gif

jeffpn
11-10-2012, 06:57 PM
Knock it off.

Jed_Sanders
11-11-2012, 05:58 PM
Gear alignment issue is now solved and radiator surfaces added.

Not much left to model, I want to use some of my spare polys to create an interior with a seat, yoke, dash and such.

Here are a few pictures, as always let me know if you see anything amiss.

Madratter
11-11-2012, 06:01 PM
If you get starved for triangles, the spinner is an obvious place to reclaim some. Looking good.

willsonman
11-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Really looking very nice. Could also maybe save some in the main wheels.

Jed_Sanders
11-11-2012, 06:11 PM
Thanks Gents.
The spinner is my poly bank! :D

Fly_electric
11-11-2012, 06:54 PM
It's looking awesome Jed. Great work!

Jed_Sanders
11-12-2012, 05:29 PM
It's looking awesome Jed. Great work!

Thanks FE.

I have included a basic interior and I'm now going though the mapping tutorials, to see if I can get some colour on it!

Triangle count is 16K:

Madratter
11-12-2012, 06:05 PM
This model has come a long long way. Keep at it. The mapping can be tough at first. But it will click. :)

Jed_Sanders
11-13-2012, 09:25 AM
This model has come a long long way. Keep at it. The mapping can be tough at first. But it will click. :)

I had a look back to the first few pages. It certainly looks better than it was.

I've started with the dreaded mapping. A quick question: My wings are identical apart from a pitot tube of the lower left wing. Is it better to mirror the mapped wing and then modify to remove the pitot mapping and geometry, or should I just map the right wing?

jeffpn
11-13-2012, 10:22 AM
I delete half my plane before I map. (I don't know if it's "better.")

Boof69
11-13-2012, 10:49 AM
Yup mirror the wing then delete the unwanted pitot tubes.

Madratter
11-13-2012, 11:57 AM
I'm trying to decide what you really mean by this question. It is very possible to have both wings show up the same place in the map. You can do this but then the resultant CS will of necessity be absolutely symmetric. I prefer that not be the case but it really depends how locked into a particular CS you want to be.

On the other hand, you could map just the one side, mirror, and still move the mirrored wing to a different spot on the map.

Jed_Sanders
11-13-2012, 12:16 PM
MR, I was trying to figure out how best to map the right wing. Most tutorials are for symmetrical wings and as mine are very close, I wanted to be sure I could mirror/copy then edit the map/verts after.

As for map placement and CS choice, well I'm not that far yet. Just trying to attempt to map each part. Boofs next tutorial looks to cover placement and such.

Jed_Sanders
11-13-2012, 04:26 PM
Fuse, flying surfaces and control surfaces mapped with a basic test .tga:

Madratter
11-13-2012, 05:52 PM
If you were Jeff, you would almost be done now. :D

jeffpn
11-13-2012, 06:11 PM
He's already past me!!

AlternativeRC
11-13-2012, 06:15 PM
Looking really good Jed! Can't wait to fly it!

Madratter
11-13-2012, 06:20 PM
He's already past me!!

Nah. You remap when the boss says it is required. :p

I'm just jealous. You and the Maj. make a good team.

Jed_Sanders
11-13-2012, 06:27 PM
I found a nice simple CS to guide me through the mapping process:

Madratter
11-13-2012, 06:30 PM
Now is where it starts to get interesting (and time consuming). There are all those wonderful panel lines, rivits, etc. to add.

Also, a spec map would do wonders.

It is great to see you get this far. :)

Jed_Sanders
11-13-2012, 09:12 PM
I really need to go back to the mapping and redo each object separately.
My first attempt is causing lots of problems due to corner cutting I took :rolleyes:

Does anyone have any tips to mapping things like the exhaust manifolds and joystick i.e. anything with multiple curved faces?

abaser
11-13-2012, 09:23 PM
Does anyone have any tips to mapping things like the exhaust manifolds and joystick i.e. anything with multiple curved faces?

Practice, Practice, Practice. :p

That's actually a go with the flow, different for every model kind of thing (at least for me). Different mapping techniques can be used for different things. Check out youtube for tuts on pelt mapping and other methods. Some of these may work easier for you than others.

Mikeymike21
11-13-2012, 09:41 PM
Looks great :)

Now if someone can get this sound in RF for it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm-Ke3eoj-Y

Fly_electric
11-14-2012, 02:19 PM
You are doing great Jed!