RealFlight G2 Copy Protection

[Robert Willis]

I recently acquired a copy of RealFlight R/C Simulator G2 (Upgrade Disc) and was sucessful in getting it installed on my computer after re-installing my original RealFlight Version 1.20.71

I am currently being asked to re-insert various disk on a random basis for what apperars to be a copy protection check. If this is the case then is it possible to Return both my original copy and the G2 Update disk to get a "Original G2 Disk" that does not require me to keep the older disk around?

I am all for protecting the rights of the developer but this copy protection scheme stinks!! We as a consumer have no way to make a copy of the disk for archive purposes. (Yes I am aware of various hack programs that can do this, but I would rather a solution be provided by the developer of the software, than take on the task of breaking the protection).

I own the following:

RealFlight Standard
RealFlight Add-Ons Volume 1
RealFlight Add-Ons Volume 2
RealFlight G2 (Upgrade)

[flyboy]

You echo my sentiments exactly - while I can understand the trepidation of Knife Edge and Great Planes to release an un-protected CD, I still think they are being over cautious. Agreed, piracy is a major problem in the PC world, but R/C Simulators are a specialised product and your average PC games fanatic isn't going to be in the least be interested in it, especially as you need to invest in some decent hardware (interface + TX or dummy TX) to use the sim properly.

Installing protection on software media effectively sends a message to the purchaser saying "you're a thief, we don't trust you".

I too would welcome a scheme to swap my original RF Deluxe CD + G2 for just one G2 CD. Do Great Planes provide this option? No, they certainly don't. Why? I really don't know.


Phil

[ChefJeff]

I too find this extremely irritating, maybe because this software seems to assume I'm a software pirate. And it's the only software I own that behaves this way.

It seems to happen in annoying spurts and it "gets me" twice each time - once when it asks me for one of the add-on disks, then again when I try to re-enter the program and it refuses to load because the add-on disk is still in the drive.

Like you I own RealFlight, the Deluxe Upgrade, the G2 Upgrade and both add-ons. I too would be happy to exchange the first three for a full version IF that would eliminate the disk swapping. You'd still need the add-on disks though because they add fields and aircraft to G2 and you might still need to "show" them to the program periodically.

CJ

[gheumann]

I love the program and gladly paid for every CD. But now I have 5 of them. I feel entering the serial number of the original disks should have been sufficient at install time (I needed 4/5 of them) and operating the software should only require the G2 CD.

<hr>
Greg Heumann
<a href=http://www.flypcc.org>Peninsula Channel Commanders</a>


<a href=http://myweb.ncal.verio.com/~greg/hangar.html>Greg's Hangar</a>

[Slider]

You could think of it this way. If you have the disk for the original RF and RF Deluxe and G2. If you ever for whatever reason wanted to go back to either the RF original or RF Deluxe versions of RF, you could. Also, so far with the RF original and RF Deluxe and G2 installed on my computer. When starting up G2, the sim hasn't yet asked for me to insert either of the original disk. Now if it did ask me to insert the disk every time that I ran G2, that might be a pain in the behind after a while. I also personnally think of it this way. I'm so happy with the way that G2 came out, that even if I had to go through the hassles of having to insert the original disk everytime I wanted to run G2, it just wouldn't bug me. I'm personnally convinced that KniefEdge put in a ton of money and time to get this G2 sim up and running. I personnally don't want to do anything to put any pressure on them at this time. Give them time to recoop some of the money they invested, then maybe press them on these type's of issue's.
Yea, G2 isn't exactly what you call cheap, but I personnally feel that every last cent that I spent on G2 was more then worth it. Just my own personnal point of view.

Adlai

[Slider]

I guess you could also think of or look at it this way. If giving the option of allowing either RF or RF deluxe owner's who decide to pick up the G2 upgrade the option of either choosing just the G2 upgrade disk that would have to be used with the original RF and RF Deluxe disk. Or the option of just having one disk for G2 without having to intall the original RF and or RF Deluxe disk.
And this would help to increase Sales? Then that might be the right thing to do, ( If ) KnifeEdge could afford it at this time.

Adlai

[Robert Willis]

Under the current copy protection scheme, if any of my four disk get damaged them I cannot run the simulator. As I said earlier, I understand their need to protect their product from illegal distribution. I am looking for a solution that only requires me to keep the G2 and Add-On disk which would be like the original RealFlight installation. I personally would even be willing to forgo my rebate and have them ship me a "Original G2" disk once I returned my current disk. This would not cost RealFlight or Great Plains any where near the $40.00 US that they are offering as the rebate.

I do agree that G2 is a great product and will look forward to G3 and beyond.....

[niteware]

I agree. If I could return the RFD and Upgrade G2 cdrom and get an original G2, I would.

As far as it not asking someone it insert the CD, I'm asked everytime to insert the G2 Upgrade CDROM. This also kills me using it on my travel laptop since it has no CDROM in it.

-bob

[Boydz]

I have had no problem with this :)
I just use the G2 disk to launch the game and it never asks for anything else. I have both add-ons and I upgraded from realflight standard.
Are you guys using your old realflight disk ?
When I upgraded I only had to stick the origional disks in once and that was it .
Maybe I am lucky and I probably just jinkzed myself.
Have fun

[Slider]

Robert Willis,
Now your cooking! And also thanks for straitening my sometimes ( VERY ) thick head about the obvious association of KniefeEdge and Great Planes. Though I still do think that KniefeEdge is most likely the one that shoulders the lion's share of the responsibility, cost, time and effort of getting the New G2 up and running. This is not to say that Great Planes is not a very big part of G2. I think you put up a very good case with your last message. Time to see what other post come up here.
:rolleyes:

Adlai

[dmwierz]

Well, I've upgraded my RFD to G2 using the upgrade disc, and only need to insert the G2 upgrade disc to play. Occasionally, I've needed to insert one or the other of the Add-on discs, but even that can be minimized by increasing the size of the memory allocated to RF G2, and the more I play, the less I need to use the Add-ons.

Maybe those of you who have had difficulties have system issues that we lucky ones don't? I'm running a PIII at 700 MhZ with 256KM of RAM, FWIW.

Dennis in Louisville, KY

[Slider]

Boydz,
So far, I only have to use the G2 upgrade disk whenever I want to run G2. :)

Adlai

[Scott Kemp]

If you have to insert all 4 cds all the time, please submit a bug at <A HREF="http://www.knifeedge.com." TARGET="_blank">www.knifeedge.com.</A>

Thanks

[Robert Willis]

I do not think my system should have a problem.

Gateway PIII 700MHz with 256MB RAM
30GB Harddrive with 3GB Free on Partition that RealFlight is Installed to.
Creative Labs Anillator Pro 32MB DDR
Operating System: Dual Boot WINME / WIN2000PRO
SoundBlaster Live!

The dang system still ask for all of the disk (RF, G2, Add On 1 and Add On 2) at various times. I have software that cost anywhere from $250.00 to $8,000.00 on my system and this is the only package that is "anal" about the software protection. The 8K package has a unique code that I received when I regestied the package with the vendor to activate the software. Prior to loading the RealFlight G2 package this was the worst one.

Please understand I DO NOT CONDONE the theft of intellectual property rights, I am looking for a solution that allows me to enjoy the software that I rightlfully purchased.
:confused:

[Doug]

I have been using the G2 upgrade for about three weeks and find it annoying to keep needing to insert the two "add on" disks and the original from time to time. I agree that this is a specialized product and as it requires an interface or transmitter to function is somewhat "protected". I would think the "act" of installing the software one time should allow the use without the annoying disk requests. Continually swapping the disks will eventually damage them and leave us "flightless" -Please Address- :o

[Slider]

Just dropping in to see what's up. For some reason err another. The only way I can view this post is by posting myself.
:rolleyes:

Adlai

[Slider]

Hope you don't mind me saying this, but very good point Doug. If we damage a disk, do we have to purchase it over again or can we send in the damaged disk for a new one without charge? :rolleyes:

Adlai

[This message was edited by Slider on 01-03-01 at .]

[Slider]

Made a mistake on this message that's why I deleted it. Brrb and sorry bout that. :confused: :p

[This message was edited by Slider on 01-03-01 at .]

[Buckaroo]

Great planes will replace them for 10 bucks a pop. That in its self is annoying, especially when you are faced with haveing to handle them all the time.

[Slider]

If someone damaged their RF disk, do they have to pay for a new disk or can they just send in the damaged one and get a new one free?
Man of man, again I didn't see the reply's that already answered this question. Anyway, Does the ten bucks include shipping? If so, that doesn't sound unreasonable to me. But if you also have to pay for shipping, that might be a little harder to take, especially if it's NOT the main disk that you would have to replace.

Adlai :rolleyes:

[This message was edited by Slider on 01-03-01 at .]

[Slider]

Time to go fly the P-51 and relax for a while.
:D

Adlai

[flyboy]

Seems to me that no-one likes the absurd 'CD required' copy protection of the Real Flight software (Deluxe or G2). I guess we can moan and bitch all we like, but will Great Planes take any notice? Or is it Knife Edge who are insisting on the CD protection?

Does anyone 'important' at Great Planes read these messages?

My main concern though is the fact I can't backup the CD - what if my G2 CD is somehow damaged, what do I do then? I'm in the UK and purchased my G2 Upgrade from ECMC in Canada (it's not yet available in the UK) so would I need to wait who knows HOW many weeks for a replacement? Even people in the US or Canada might have to wait days for a replacement.

Let's be honest about this, and I'll speak my mind here - this copy protection STINKS and ruins an otherwise brilliant product that I would recommend to anyone requiring a great R/C simulator. I've been a good advocate of G2 and have advised various folks on the rec.models.rc.air/helicopter newsgroups to buy it as I think it deserves every success. However, one day I might have to eat my words when others are inconvenienced by this abysmal protection.

Why let one easy resolvable problem mar an otherwise great product?

Here's a possible solution to the problem: ship two CDs in each G2 package. Problem solved - the user has a backup. Or will Great Planes/Knife Edge still worry about piracy? If so, then someone has their head stuck firmly where the sun doesn't shine .........

Phil

[Slider]

Just finished ringing out the P-51 for about 15 minutes and I'm all relaxed again. And this time I even had to insert the G2 disk, the original RF disk and the add on disk volume 2 to get it running, but I'm still relaxed after that 15 session. Yup, if it's only $10 to replace a RF disk, and even If I had to pay for the shipping. That sounds like a good deal to me. Sure hope it's only $10 bucks? Time to go back and do a little more flying.
:p

Adlai

[Slider]

:rolleyes:

Adlai

[Slider]

Unique code sounds like an idea.
:rolleyes:

Adlai

[Slider]

OK, Brain Fade! My brain fade.
A unique code, isn't that the same as RF's serial number's for it's CD's.
Time to fly the P-51 again?
:confused:

Adlai

[Buckaroo]

I'm not sure if you have to pay shipping on top, but you do have to ship the bad one to them 1st

[Slider]

OK, I give's up. I'm starting to talk to much nonsense already. Robert already expressed about not liking the code system or serial number stuff. In my defense ( sorta ), one of the reason's I'm getting things all mixed up is because the post or messages here just don't seem to be working correctly. Can't view all the statements that everyone made, unless I post a message myself and now, even if I post, I can't see any of the current messages. But mostly Brain Fade on my part at this time. Brrb.....
Just gonna go fly the P-51 and wait till I can see all the message's before checking this post out again. brrb..... :p

Adlai

[dmwierz]

My G2 was running fine, only asking me for the G2 Upgrade disc until today. Now I need to insert not only the G2 disc whenever I play, but also the two add-on discs, AND I DIDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING FROM YESTERDAY TO TODAY?!

I agree with the other posters - this is a major hassle.

[flyboy]

I wish we could get some acknowledgement of our moans and gripes on the copy protection from someone at Knife Edge, maybe Scott? There is obviously intense dislike for the copy protection, but no-one 'responsible' seems to want to comment on the issue or enter into any kind of discussion. We are, after all, the people who buy the software and contribute to THEIR wages - surely we should be listened to, even if the matter is somewhat 'sensitive'?

Phil

[Jim Coleman]

OK.... I'm not going to enter into the philisophical discussion of copy protection. However, I will address the annoying problem of having to put your CDs in all of the time.

Let me start by saying that we want to make G2 as easy to use a possible. Shuffling multiple CDs does NOT reflect our 'easy to use' philosophy, so we'll do our best to change it.

We have some higher priority issues to deal with at present time, so please be patient.

:)

[Doug]

I have noticed that since I have been using multiplayer that I have logged 25 startup sessions without any requirement to insert anything except the G2 upgrade disk. Since I am on line when I start the program "checks in" for updates on every start up. Is it possible that this is satisfing the "verification" requirement or am I just lucky.

Doug

[flyboy]

Jim - thanks for taking the trouble to reply, it's appreciated.


Phil

[Madmax]

How about having to insert the CD ( UPGRADE ONLY ) only for specific features, like multiplayer or flight instructor?? Since we don't use these features all the time, it would be less of a pain...

:eek:

Maxime Michaud

[Slider]

beep
:rolleyes:

Adlai

[Keith Haigh]

Surely, if this problem with having to put in all the c.d.'s in all of the time to start RF is to do with this copyright issue, then how come G2 works with one c.d. in most users computors and there are only a few of us who are having problems. I have tried to send a bug report in to Knife Edge, which didnt actually work.

[dmwierz]

Keith,

A better question yet: why do I SOMETIMES have to put all my discs in and other times not? Thought maybe rebooting changed things, but I proved this wrong empirically. Within a given boot cycle, I sometimes need to swap discs and sometimes not. It seems about even; 1/2 the time I can just put in the G2 upgrade disc and play, and other times it asks me for my RFD and add-on discs. I'm not playing any diffferent planes or fields, even.

Who knows, but it SURE IS ANNOYING!

Dennis

[bourno]

I thought I was one of the lucky ones. I haven't had to do any disk swapping until today. Will ask me to put in the Add-ons 1, but the screen won't go away until I click the 'Cancel' button. Then it asks for Add-ons 2. Same thing, so now G2 won't reconize that I have that Add-on and gives me lots of error messages.

Anyone else having problems using the upgrade feature on the control panel? I was hoping to get the newest version of G2, but I get errors. Not sure if it's my ISP or the server is down.

[Keith Haigh]

Bourno,
Ive recently completed a downioad upgrade to the latest version of G2, everything went smoothly, except I had to register the copy of G2 first before they allowed it to go through.
The RF support line suggested that I reinstalled G2 before anything else, to resolve this disc swapping issue. But then I suppose I will have to download the upgrade once again.

[DJ V]

why not utilize a hardware key? (dongle)
just curious
DJ

[rckrzy1]

I must add my money's worth too. If you end up needing a new CD for say the $99 upgrade cd,that's $10 plus $7shipping, that is 17% of the software cost, and this is for the hardware that really should not be needed, after all we bought the software, not a consumable item that wears out like a CD, the software should load and that's it, put the delivery vehicle away.

Adam

[Evan G]

ok time to clairify how it is going to work if you send your disk(s) into great planes. First if your disk is damaged, cracked, scratched, glued to part of your table, all you need to do is to send the disk into great planes, and they will replace a damaged disk for you at no cost. If you have an old version of the software, say you have v1.10.163, and want to exchange that disk for a v1.20.191 disk, then they will charge you $10 US for the exchange of this disk, since the program is not damaged in any way. For those of you that want to send in your realflight, realflight deluxe, whatever disk and the G2 update disk, and exchange them for a full version disk of G2, all you need to do is just send the disks in, with a note as to that regard. There is no charge for an exchange of this type either. Please note that no matter what, you must ship the disk in yourself, and pay for that shipping. In most cases that is all that you need to pay for. Please note that in order to exchange for the full version of G2, you must send in a full version of realflight, and the G2 update disk as well as their origional cd jewel cases.

[raptorjr]

Will it be possible to make the (RFD + G2 upgrade)
--> (Full G2) switch at your local dealer? Or at the distributor in your country?

[Stormbringer]

DJ V don't even get them started on that line of thought. Hardware dongles suck - most of the time they work ok but when they don't you're screwed and can't use a product you paid over $200.00 for. That is not right. As a computer consultant I encounter these situations on an almost daily basis - sometimes with software that costs well over $3000 a copy.

What the software producers need to do is start respecting the consumers of their expensive products and forget their fancy and expensive "copy-protection"/anti-piracy schemes and just produce good software without all the tricks. I just had the nasty experience of being unable to install G2 on a client's computer whose ACER 50X CDROM drive didn't like his new "original" G2 cd (even though it read other disks fine). His original G2 disk worked fine in my CDROM Drive at home. I had to sell him a new 52X Samsung CDROM drive just to install and run G2. Boy was he pissed at Great Planes/ Knife Edge for that and I can't blame him.

Get over the paranoia of piracy folks. The disks can be copied so you wasted your money on Macrovision's Safedisk 2. In fact I can copy my original G2 disk without any problem and can use it in any of my CDROM drives at home. I use the copy instead of my legitimately purchased original G2 CD in case it gets scratched or damaged. And I know that I am not alone. Now for a piece of advice: If I were you guys at Knife Edge I would forget spending the money on Macrovision's anti-copying technology crap and put that money into refining the RealFlight Sim. You only piss off legitimate users of your products with this crap on your disk and I almost told my client to send his copy of G2 back - in fact he was ready to do so before I stepped in. Remember this: I won't hesitate to let a client send his copy back next time this happens. Maybe then you will get the message.

Don't get me wrong, I like G2. In fact, I like it alot. But that being said I hate this whole copy protection crap. It wreaks havoc with many "potential" users of your products and pisses off additional sales. The whole copy protection thing is a joke and you need to know it. All PC CD's can be copyied!!! And don't think they can't. Don't waste your money on this crap. Instead give us a better/more refined product in the future. If not I will be downloading and installing FMS's freeware rc flight sim for future clients and shy them away from RF.

[raptorjr]

Stormbringer is right. People who wan't to cope a game or program always finds a way to do it. There doesn't matter how smart the copy protection is. There is always someone who is smarter and finds out a crack to bypass the protection.

Skip the copy protection. Modify you transmitter box so it uses the transmitter interface and not the gameport. I would think that it is harder to make a copy of the transmitter interface, than to break the copy protection on the disk. And even if someone finds a way to reproduce the interface there is not as many people who knows how to build it. But almost everyone knows how to use a CD burner and a crack to make a copy of a disc.

[Bob_Mintus]

I had the same problem stormbringer's client mentioned regarding the CD. For some reason, my 2-year old 32x drive wouldn't work, and I kept getting a cryptic "Error in module ~DMM42B" or similar.

On a whim, I tried putting the CD in my HP 9350 CD-RW drive. No problems.

I'm sure that making a backup copy of the G2 cd is in clear violation of the license agreement, but considering the need to continually swap disks out sure puts the media we have at risk.

[EMan]

There are ways to use your G2 without the discs in the drive. :D However I am not too sure if we can discuss them here but I do want to say that at the prices of these discs (I paid US$347 for the G2 with a mode 1 Transmitter and the two add-on discs), most of us just cannot afford to damage them or have them scratched, thus we need to keep them safe somewhere.

I am not for pirated CDs but my concern is what if my discs get damaged, where do I change them and with whom? Will my local store do it for me? Send my disc all the way from South East Asia to the US for an exchange? The waiting time alone will kill me not to mention additional $$$$$

[This message was edited by EMan on 04-04-01 at .]

[vewright]

I too object to having to keep a stack of CD-ROMs in front of my computer because RealFlight may demand any one of them at any given time--at least I have never had to swap CDs in the middle of a flight.

Copy protection schemes reflect the developer/publisher's belief that everyone with a computer wants to use their program, and will do so without paying for the program if at all possible. Without copy protection, they believe, the entire world will be using the product and their only income will be from the few suckers who purchase it. All of those pirated copies, they believe, represent lost income.

It is evident that this is not the case. The fact is that most applications appeal to relatively small groups of users, and the market for any given program is limited. No one can deny that a few users will make illegal copies of programs, and a few of those will even use the program more than once or twice. But those illegal copies do not represent lost sales. No one other than a dedicated RC'er would pay $250 for RealFlight or anything like it. No one other than a dedicated RC'er would even give up the disk space it takes to install RealFlight, even if it were free.

Note that Flight Simulator has no copy protection scheme, nor does Windows! And, who makes the most money--Knife Edge/Real Flight/Great Planes, or Microsoft?

I say that for every good copy protected program, there is an equally good non-protected program that generates more income for its developer.

Now, I suppose that RC'ers could be the most perverse group of people on the planet and thus deserve copy protection.

[Derek8819]

Stormbringer drop me a email at rousseau@charter.net Thanks I have some questions

[apex]

Stormbringer how can i get ahold of you?
icq is 153246
aim is maestro72x
and email is augustfyoung@hotmail.com
please contact me

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stormbringer:
DJ V don't even get them started on that line of thought. Hardware dongles suck - most of the time they work ok but when they don't you're screwed and can't use a product you paid over $200.00 for. That is not right. As a computer consultant I encounter these situations on an almost daily basis - sometimes with software that costs well over $3000 a copy.

What the software producers need to do is start respecting the consumers of their expensive products and forget their fancy and expensive "copy-protection"/anti-piracy schemes and just produce good software without all the tricks. I just had the nasty experience of being unable to install G2 on a client's computer whose ACER 50X CDROM drive didn't like his new "original" G2 cd (even though it read other disks fine). His original G2 disk worked fine in my CDROM Drive at home. I had to sell him a new 52X Samsung CDROM drive just to install and run G2. Boy was he pissed at Great Planes/ Knife Edge for that and I can't blame him.

Get over the paranoia of piracy folks. The disks can be copied so you wasted your money on Macrovision's Safedisk 2. In fact I can copy my original G2 disk without any problem and can use it in any of my CDROM drives at home. I use the copy instead of my legitimately purchased original G2 CD in case it gets scratched or damaged. And I know that I am not alone. Now for a piece of advice: If I were you guys at Knife Edge I would forget spending the money on Macrovision's anti-copying technology crap and put that money into refining the RealFlight Sim. You only piss off legitimate users of your products with this crap on your disk and I almost told my client to send his copy of G2 back - in fact he was ready to do so before I stepped in. Remember this: I won't hesitate to let a client send his copy back next time this happens. Maybe then you will get the message.

Don't get me wrong, I like G2. In fact, I like it alot. But that being said I hate this whole copy protection crap. It wreaks havoc with many "potential" users of your products and pisses off additional sales. The whole copy protection thing is a joke and you need to know it. All PC CD's can be copyied!!! And don't think they can't. Don't waste your money on this crap. Instead give us a better/more refined product in the future. If not I will be downloading and installing FMS's freeware rc flight sim for future clients and shy them away from RF.[/quote]

[rstille]

Two important URLs:

http://nbm.cdfreaks.com/document.php3?Doc=52

http://nbm.cdfreaks.com/document.php3?Doc=58

I just used the BetaBlocker suggestion(www.geocities.com/cdbeta)along with CloneCD (both shareware) to backup one of my game CDs that was protected with SafeDisc v2. For those of us with CD writers that do not support EFM encoding (most of us), this combination will enable the backup safedisc protected CDs with standard CD writers.

There are several options/alternatives presented to defeat SafeDisk.

Since the EULA I have for RF does not provide for media replacement after 90 days, I am concerned that I am restricted to one original copy of the software. The EULA does not provide for creating backup copies nor does it obligate KE to provide replacement copies after 90 days. I understand you do so out of goodwill today; that may not always be the case. Scott, with your permission, I'd like to make a backup copy of my software.

[riven]

http://www.virtualcd-online.com/

I have used this program to transfer G2 and
add-ons to my hardisk.

.

[hidden]

I am so glad I only have to have one Cd in..

But still.. I'm using my CD-burner as a regular CD drive .. So I hope I don't wear this drive out I just bought it.. Err.. I do think this copy protection sucks..

There has to be a better way.

Dave

[Mith]

Are the disks copyable? If you are good at copying software, you could just make a back-up copy.