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  #1  
Old 02-22-2007, 10:51 PM
torkboy torkboy is offline
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Why is G3 crashing so much!!!!

Man this is getting old. I posted here before, and nothing was done to help me, well im going to post again. G3 is really starting to make me tic with it crashing. Can someone help me as to why its crashing, and if its fixable.
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Old 02-22-2007, 11:14 PM
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I think I know why you're not getting help. You are not specific at all about the nature of your "crashes", and you failed to post your specs as the sticky in the G3 support forum states. How can anyone help you if you don't give details? If your car breaks down, would you pick up the phone, call any mechanic, and say, "My car's broke, why didn't you fix it?" Of course not. You'd tell the mechanic what kind of car you have, and what symptoms you're experiencing. Do the same here, you'll probably get the help you're looking for.
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Old 02-22-2007, 11:37 PM
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Dee dee dee. Forgot to do that.

Well the problem, is quite random, but does it most when online, with others. It says G3 has done something about an error, and needs to shut down, would you like to forward this to KE technical group, Yes? No?
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  #4  
Old 02-23-2007, 12:05 AM
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You could start with the following

- Eliminate your AOL software (known to cause problems)
- Get rid of background processes associated with your TV tuner
These must not run at the same time G3 is running
- Get rid of MSmessenger's autostart which you have on
- Get rid of Intel's monitor service which you have running
- Terminate Ipod Service
- Terminate Firefox service

You have a lot of stuff running at the same time G3 is running, which is not good.

- Turn DOWN your screen resolution while you run G3
- If possible uninstall the TV Tuner software and the TV Tuner card until you eliminate the problem.
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Old 02-23-2007, 03:14 AM
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BKM72 BKM72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opjose
You could start with the following

- Eliminate your AOL software (known to cause problems)
.

Thats a MAJOR part of it......
.....people still use AOL?

Dang.......thats rough.
Its 2007..........
Take the training wheels off. !!!

Last edited by BKM72; 02-23-2007 at 03:18 AM.
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  #6  
Old 02-23-2007, 09:18 AM
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And - this looks to be a newer system. Check the usual: new video and sound drivers. The ones here are from last fall, very likely there are more updates.

But most likely is all the other "stuff" running at the same time......
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:26 PM
torkboy torkboy is offline
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Thanks for the replies, but How can u tell That there are programs wunning with my TV tuner, I didnt even know that!!!!

And the iPodservice, Can I remove that even though its part of system?
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:28 PM
torkboy torkboy is offline
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Also whats wrong with my resolution, I have a 1680X1050 monitor? I beleive I have it set to that?
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:13 AM
torkboy torkboy is offline
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Jeezus!!! Just crashed 4 times in the last 10 minutes!!!

All crashes were playing online.

Ug new report here it is.
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  #10  
Old 02-24-2007, 02:38 AM
Steppenwolf Steppenwolf is offline
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Looks to me like someone should be banned.
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  #11  
Old 02-24-2007, 04:25 AM
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You got rid of a few, but there are more background services you should really kill.

Also you haven't turned down the display resolution as has been stated.

Give it a try.
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  #12  
Old 02-24-2007, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torkboy
Thanks for the replies, but How can u tell That there are programs wunning with my TV tuner, I didnt even know that!!!!

And the iPodservice, Can I remove that even though its part of system?
I hope this explains to torkboy and others why the diag dump is such a valuable tool.

Last edited by jeffpn; 02-24-2007 at 08:38 AM.
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  #13  
Old 02-24-2007, 12:22 PM
torkboy torkboy is offline
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Ill turn down the resolution, but I still dont understand as to why, but im willing to try.

Quote:
Looks to me like someone should be banned.
Why should I be banned, im calm and willing to try anything theses guys may suggest?

Can I close iPod service? It is a system User Name thing, I have been told that you cant close those, but Im guessing this is an exception?

When I had those crashes, I closed everything I could that was under HP_administrator, except iPod services, is there more I can do?
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  #14  
Old 02-24-2007, 02:23 PM
dledford dledford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torkboy
Ill turn down the resolution, but I still dont understand as to why, but im willing to try.



Why should I be banned, im calm and willing to try anything theses guys may suggest?

Can I close iPod service? It is a system User Name thing, I have been told that you cant close those, but Im guessing this is an exception?

When I had those crashes, I closed everything I could that was under HP_administrator, except iPod services, is there more I can do?
In all fairness, the iPod service just sits in the background and waits for you to plug your iPod into either a firewire or USB port. If you do that, then it fires up iTunes. Assuming you don't actually try to plug/unplug an iPod while running RF G3.5, RF shouldn't be bothered by it. If RF is so fragile as to be broken by an idle service like that, then that's a legitimate bug in RF that needs fixed.

As for the resolution, I run 1680x1050 on my monitor as well (actually, 1680x1050 dual head), and I run G3.5 in windowed mode at 1680x1000 I think. Works fine, and I have a slower CPU than you do and about the same speed video card as you do. I also have 2GB of RAM, but I have 1GB of that allocated to a linux virtual host in VMWare (which is always visible on the second monitor, even when flying). All works fine. So consider that a data point that if everything else is working properly (driver/hardware wise), then you should be able to use full resolution on your monitor.

Speaking as a long time (15 year) professional software engineer, I understand the desire by people such as opjose to make blanket statements like "turn off all unnecessary services" as a debugging tool. But to try and apply that same principle to regular operation is to invite poor programming on the part of Knife Edge engineers. There are *some* legitimately interferring background software that should be turned off. Other software should not need to be turned off in order for RF to run properly (please note that running properly doesn't not mean performing well, it just means not crashing or doing other untoward things, and Firefox can *easily* sit around as a background process in a machine with 2GB of RAM). If it does, it's a bug in the RF program and should be treated as such, with KE fixing the program instead of users being asked to turn off things that shouldn't need to be turned off.

These are the sorts of things that legitimately might cause RF problems:

1) background software that attempts to perform 3D graphics operations when RF is running
2) background software that attempts to use the sound hardware while RF is running (and this one is arguable, Windows provides multiple sound source mediation services, so it *shouldn't* cause a problem, just like running World of Warcraft and Ventrilo at the same time on the same sound hardware is OK, but it's possible that RF is written in such a way that this might be a problem, and it's possible that the sound hardware driver might have issues when trying to mix multiple sound streams, so we'll allow it)
3) background software that attempts to probe, use, connect, disconnect, or in some other way messes with the USB interlink controller (note, accessing other USB devices is ok as long as it doesn't use too much of the available USB bandwidth on the USB host controller the interlink controller is connected to)
4) background software that attempts to open pop up windows overlayed on top of the RF 3D window
5) exceptionally large applications that reduce the available RAM in the machine below what RF needs to operate, which depends highly on how much RAM you have, the more you have, the larger the background applications can be
6) anything from AOL

Those are the basic classes of software that Knife Edge has legitimate reason to request you to disable prior to running RF (the list may not be exhaustive, I didn't spend hours trying to think up things that would legitimately interfere with RF, but the full list certainly isn't "everything" either). There are additional classes of software that are likely to cause RF problems that you will notice, such as background processes that may use significant CPU time or cause significant hard drive access. Although these processes may degrade RF performance and cause poor frame rates, they should *NOT* cause RF to crash (if they do, then file a bug with Knife Edge).

Amongst the things that should *NOT* cause RF problems are background processes using the network for TCP/IP or Windows based network communications. The network stack in Windows has always been multi-access (meaning no application "owns" the controller, they just send packets over the Windows kernel owned controller). However, network firewalls or virus software might interfere with online play, but they shouldn't cause RF to crash. I will grant that any AOL software might interfere with just about anything...AOL tries to hook and control waaaay more stuff than they should and it generally breaks more things than it helps.

Also, the capture card (especially if used as a DVR) might cause excessive CPU load, and if the system shares too many devices on the same PCI bus, background recording of something by the capture card to hard disk could theoretically overload the PCI bus depending on resolution and image quality during the recording process. If it does overload the PCI bus, then that's likely to cause either sound or video operations to get missed, resulting in a reset of the hardware which is likely to very much upset RF.

So, here's what I would recommend for debugging your situation.

First, see if the crashes occur only when playing multiplayer online, or solo as well. If they happen solo, then do all the things on this list while playing solo and checking to see if the crashes go away. If they only happen when playing online, then you can try checking these things while playing online, but online play adds more variables that could cause problems and makes isolating the *real* problem more difficult, so try to do this debugging while playing solo if you can.

Check on the sound hardware. You have a relatively new bit of high def hardware. Unfortunately, that means newer, and less reliable drivers. If you have access to a Creative Labs sound card, I'd trying putting it in the machine and disabling your current sound card. The Creative Labs drivers are 1 or 2 years old, but that's only because they haven't had any serious bugs that need fixed in that long. The drivers are very stable and very well tested. If you can't do that, try to find a WHQL certified driver for your sound hardware. The latest and greatest drivers for hardware from manufacturers often times include performance optimizations that can cause failures in certain situations that aren't seen in the WHQL certified drivers.

Check your ATI video card and driver. Your ATI card is a well established model. It's likely that the drivers you have from August of last year are fine. However, you can check for either the latest possible driver, or the latest possible WHQL driver. Realistically, any of them should be OK, but it can't hurt to try. If you are going to install ATI drivers though, you need to go into you control panel, then to add/remove software, and verify that the Microsoft .Net framework version 1.1 is installed, as well as make sure that Windows Update has downloaded all the service packs for the .Net framework 1.1. If you don't have the .NET framework 1.1 installed, Windows silently falls back to their default ATI video driver instead of the ATI driver you download. This can result in the you *thinking* you are testing the latest ATI driver when you aren't.

Make sure the video capture card is turned off and no background processes are running for it. You don't want it turning on to record a show or something while you are playing.

Disable any other software that might be doing the things I listed above in the classes of things that might interfere with RF.

Do all of these things one at a time then attempt to play the game solo and see if the crashes go away. If any one step eliminates the crashes, please let us know what it was. If, after you've done all these things, you still get crashes in solo play, then the problem could be a couple different hardware related things. You can try setting the processor affinity as suggested in my post. You can reboot the machine and go into the BIOS setup area and try to slow down the speed timings on your RAM to see if that helps (if you do this, then write down your current memory timings first so you can put them back if changing them doesn't help). You can also try reducing the amount of RAM in your machine. Sometimes when you have multiple pieces of RAM, the motherboard will occasionally generate RAM errors that it won't generate with fewer pieces of RAM. So, taking one of the DIMMs out can sometimes solve random memory problems (this is a non-issue if you have ECC RAM and ECC checking enabled in your BIOS, but many machines today ship with non-ECC RAM so when you get a memory error it goes undetected but causes crashes or lockups later on). There are more possible hardware issues, but it's really beyond the scope of this post to go into more detail. Suffice it to say cooling fans, cpu fans, power supplies, and other items can cause crashes, but typically the crashes will not always be in the RF simulator, they'll also occasionally crash the Windows kernel and cause a blue screen of death, so they aren't real likely if the only crashes you get are just the RF software telling you it has crashed.

If, at any point in all the things above, your crashes go away, then try adding back in online multiplayer play. If the crashes return, then it's likely either a hardware issue as described above (aka, multiplayer mode taxes the CPU/RAM harder than single player, so it could bring out memory errors that single player mode won't, in which case following the tips above for trying to eliminate hardware errors may help) or else a bug in the RF software.

HTH.

Doug Ledford <- an engineer whose A+ certification expired before most people ever knew what an A+ certified tech was
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  #15  
Old 02-24-2007, 02:30 PM
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jeffpn jeffpn is offline
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Wow, I'm full. I love your #6 potential problem!! I'm sure Opjose's point of turning off all unnecessary processes has to do with the cumulative effect of all the processes taking CPU time away from RF. While RF may not crash, it would tend to slow it down, at the least.
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